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Hi again Packard V8!

Good question. Of course you are correct that the Borg-Warner type overdrives bolt to the rear of the later transmission - that is, if you ordered overdrive as an "option" on 1939 (or was it 1940) and later production.

Well..it isn't quite that simple - to install a Borg-Warner type overdrive, you have to start out with a transmission whose rear case is designed to accept it.

So those of you with "Junior" pre-war Packards that were not factory-equipped with overdrive, have to hunt down and come up with an entire transmission already so equipped. Again, you cant simply bolt on the Borg-Warner type overdrive to a non-overdrive transmission.

So that rules out adding a Borg Warner type overdrive to Packard transmissions of ANY series, "Junior" or "Senior"

So, given the above - it really dosnt matter that there is still another reason why a "Borg-Warner" type transmission isn't going into a pre-war "Senior". (this is in addition to what I noted earlier - the pre-war Senior engines, with their transmissions removed, had no bell-housing on which to bolt a modern-style transmission. Again, the bell housing was cast as part of those huge "Senior" transmissions).

There is the little matter of the truly massive frames of the pre-war large Packards - a huge cross-member DIRECTLY behind the transmission ! No room!

Bottom line - for those of us with big pre-war Packards who want to lessen the wear-and-tear of very low axle ratios. Either "re-gear" them with a much "higher" rear axle ratio (which is only practical on the biggest-engine "Senior" Packards of that era with their incredible torque) or go to a overdrive that can be attached to the frame-rails in between that huge cross-member and the "banjo" of the rear axle.

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No - let's not "leave it at that".

First of all, I agree with you completely ! Well...up to a point !

I, too, have just a wee bit of experience with 1920's era Packards and their technology. Of course you are correct! Their technology of that era is most certainly not appropriate for today's highway speeds.

They didn't even have brakes on all four wheels until the mid 20's! I don't want to think about a high speed panic stop in a rear-wheel brake only equiiped car !

And talk about primitive shock absorbers of the 1920's!

Steering, wheels, tires of that era - again, couldn't agree with you more - 1920's era Packard technology is not appropriate for today's highway speeds.

As for your comment about the introduction in the "Senior" line in 1937 of independent front suspension - my experience with that era of "Senior" Packards confirms your admission you are not familiar with that.

The differences between a 1936 "Senior" and a 1937 "Senior" in extreme speed handling are minimal - the big advantage was in passenger comfort as to ride over bad roads still common in that area. At highway speeds I can't tell the difference.

All this is very interesting to some of us - my apologies to those who are not interested in Packard's of TomB's era.

May I remind you this "thread" was started by TomB regarding his 1934 !

I am not clear what ANY of this has any more to do with TomB's question, than V8's contribution about what he thinks he "knows" about pre-war Senior Packard handling.

For your information, by 1934 Packards had superior brakes and shock absorbers, well-suited to high speed driving.

Also, improvements in suspension design compared to the 1920's are many; not going to take the time to go over them with you here. Yes - TomB's car has a "beam" axle. Not exactly the same technology of the 1920's...!

If you are interested in the details, may I suggest you please start a new "thread" for that discussion?

Which gets us back to the "bottom line" of my recommendation to TomB about his questions in this "thread" regarding his '34 Packard.....

LISTEN TO OWEN !

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Ha - guess you havn't driven much in the Los Angeles area freeways in Southern California.......depending on where and when...you'll be lucky to average 20 mph...at other times in other places either in the Los Angeles area...or on the I-15 going to Las Vegas and/or the I-40 going to "the river"....you try going 70 mph even in the right hand lane, you stand a good chance of getting rear ended !

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Hi again Tom:

Nope - you aren't missing anything!

You may choose to listen to those of us who actually own and operate pre-war "Senior" Packards.

I am sure the guys who own the "Jr. series" and/post-war Packards mean well. But they are basing their comments on what they know about their cars - clearly they are woefully ignorant about our pre-war "Seniors".

Yes, until you get an over-drive installed, I most certainly would limit your road speed to 45-50 mph as Owen suggests. IF you do that, and IF you "drop" the oil pan at least once every two years to make sure only fresh clean oil is sucked up by the oil pump, you MAY get good service FOR A WHILE assuming your motor is equipped with "stock" poured babbit connecting rod bearings.

Chances are, your car did not get good maintainence before you got it - who knows what condition those old poured babbit bearings are in. At the SLIGHTEST sound of engine noise from the rods, and/or oil pressure with 30 wt. oil drops below, say, 30 lbs psi at...oh...say 40 mph when hot, SHUT IT OFF AND DO NOT START IT AGAIN until it is properly repaired. You WILL ruin your crank-shaft. Repairing a "Senior" series crankshaft that has been run with bad rod bearings is...well.....not for the faint-hearted....!

I rather doubt if too many wrecking yards have a stock of 1935-1939 Eight motors for you to get the connecting rods out of, so you can machine them to fit modern "insert" type rod bearings. I personally would not drive a babbit-rod bearing equipped Packard very far for for the above reason (Owen is lucky...in my view... my experience over the years (more than a few...with more than a few pre-1935 Packards......! ) tells me he is pushing his luck and is on borrowed time).

There are folks who can take your old connecting rods, use them for dimensional data, and make you up connecting rods that will accept modern "insert" type bearings (the kind ALL Packards had from 1935 production forward).

However, even with reliable "insert" type bearings, I would still go to the expense of installing a modern auxiliary transmission ( also known as an overdrive).

Once you have done that, (and other proper maintainence) I guarantee you will find yourself literally overwhelmed with delight as you drive your Packard, and discover why the Packard name is so legendary.

And be sympathetic to these guys who think our pre-war Senior Packards (again...PROPERLY MAINTAINED...!) don't handle & brake superbly at ANY speed. They obviously don't know what they are missing!

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Hi David:
You tell us "THESE CARS DO NOT HANDLE WELL AT HIGHER SPEEDS IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG SUCH AS THE NEED FOR A SUDDEN STOP OR SWERVE"...

May I inquire as to your above post ? WHICH cars "do not handle well at higher speeds"?

Can you specify for us...tell us which Senior Packards you have personal experience with.....have owned or at least driven at these "higher speeds" you speak of How fast ? Can you be specific for us ?

Hi David - your figures are close to what Packard put out for the Seniors - at 60 mph with a 4:41 (standard in the Super Eight and Twelve, 4.69 for the smaller "Standard" Eight) the engine rpm was around 2800.

To put this into perspective, this is at least 1,000 rpm more than a modern car at that speed.

Or, to put it another way, if a modern car and a classic-era "Senior" Packard start out on a trip to cover 1,000 miles.the Packard will have to drive ANOTHER 550 miles in terms of engine use to cover the same 1,000 mi.

Or, to put it another way, at 60 mph, the Packard with its long stroke is beating its connecting rod bearings...heck...everything in the motor...harder than a modern car's drive-line would incur at 110 mph. MUCH harder in terms of inertial loads on the rod bearings, because of the much longer stroke.

Bottom line..LISTEN TO OWEN !

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NO NO NO ! DONT be sorry and DONT "be more careful"! Post away !

This is for learning and for fun. No question in my mind; I've learned far more from my mistakes than on the rare occasions when I "get it right".....!

Yes - it is helpful when you have a question to ASK A QUESTION rather than volunteer something in an area you are not informed about.

But so what ! Nobody's keeping score!

As best as I am able to determine, the censors that in the past interferred with posts in here have either left us to have our fun, or have learned to stay out of our way !

Either way...POST AWAY ! If you post something totally wrong and/or completely "off-the-wall" about Packards...it will BENEFIT all of us by giving us an opportunity to learn more ! POST AWAY !

For WJames & Phils:

May I respectfully suggest you guys learn more about Packard!

As you guys point out, the concept of an overdrive is fantastic - they enable us to enjoy our "yesterday" cars at todays speeds and todays roads. Without beating the entire "drive-ine" to death from excess rpm.

Let's all be clear about this - the Packard legend for producing a superior product was well deserved and well-earned. The owner of ANY Packard in ANY price range should be proud of what his particular car represents.

Let's briefly review some Packard production history to better understand why what you "know" about your Packard's transmissons and overdrive applications is irrelevant to Tom & the rest of us with "Senior" or "big" Packards made prior to June 1939.

In the early 1930's, Packard management correctly recognized the market for the big "super-cars" they'd built their reputation on, was disappearing. So they set up an entirely separate production facility to make "Junior" Packards. NOTHING from a "Senior" Packard is interchangeable with a "Junior" Packard. They may as well have been different makes of cars.

Your 1935 & later "Junior" Packards had transmission cases of conventional design. So of course it is possible to modify these cars to take later tranmissions with an attached overdrive. The "Junior" Packard transmissions are seperate from & bolt up to a conventional "bell housing" which in turn is attached to a conventional engine casting.

The "big" Packards had an entirely different transmission. Of course it was a much larger and heavier device to handle the much more powerful motors of the "big" Packards.

For our discussion here...the big difference - the "Senior" Packard engines had no bell housing! The transmission case of the "big" Packards was cast as a unit with the bell housing and THAT bolts directly to the rear of the engine casting.

Installing an overdrive in Tom's '34 is, as others have noted, not a problem - the benefits have already been discussed. But that kind of overdrive has NOTHING to do with what you guys with later Packards are familiar with.

To answer Tom's question about which overdrive he should purchase, I can tell him I know people with both makes, and they are delighted with the result.

But again, note this is NOT the kind of (Borg Warner) overdrive that was offered as an option for the "Junior" Packards. It is a separate two-speed auxiliary transmission that is mounted just forward of the differential, using fabricated supports to bolt to the frame rails.

If I may go back to Tom's question about shock absorbers...
Tom - yes - jumping up and down on the front and rear bumpers to check to see if shock-absorbers are working, is a great idea. Well..that is if you are dealing with the much lighter & later "Junior" Packards. Forget about it with the "Seniors" like yours! Your car is sprung much too stiffly - that is why I commented how wrong V8's comment was about "handling on curves" - he obviously dosnt know that by comparison with "Junior" Packards, yours is sprung much more stiffly.... like a sports car!

At the risk of repeating myself...I say again..LISTEN TO OWEN!

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Would I be correct if I assume "Packard V8" has never seen a pre-war "Senior" transmission?

( hint - what we call a "bell housing" is, on pre war Senior Packards, cast as part of the transmission case - ONE PIECE ! ) With the transmission of a pre-war "Senior" Packard out of the car, there is NO bell housing at ALL - no way to use an adapter to attach a modern transmission.

And why do that ? For those of us who have driven pre-war Packard "Seniors" with properly maintained transmissions....honestly...have you ever operated a "sweeter" more "slick", more smoothly shifted one..?

Owen obviously has some experience with pre-war Senior Packards - so LISTEN to him, Tom.....( perhaps Owen has not QUITE as much as me...I suspect I was owning, driving, and working on them years before Owen graced this planet with his presence......! )

Bottom line...Tom...LISTEN TO OWEN !

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Hi again Tom!

As I noted, your '34 Packard came out of the factory with outstanding "double action" shocks - lever type, bolted to the frame.

The bad news is if they are NOT working properly, there would be some validity to V8's comments about pre-war Packard ""handling!

It would not surprise me if their hydraulic fluid leaked out (renedering them useless..) especially in a car that has been standing unused for some time. The reason - the seals may be gone. If you check in Hemmings, you will find that there are people who service these if that is the case.

But try em out first. You can try filling them up see if and/or how bad they leak.

I recommend you disconnect the rods that connect the lever of the shock to the axle. Then "work" the levers up and down for their full travel while filling - helps get all the air out.

Owen also owns a Packard like yours - perhaps he can crawl under his with a good camera and post for you photos of what your front and rear shocks look like.