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Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#1
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Thunderbolt
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When I changed the oil on the '52 300 a couple of months ago I had to clean a lot of graphite-like metallic cakes from the bottom of the oil filter tank. After a couple of hundred miles the oil is already dark and that grey metallic sludge seems to be coming back. My mechanic said a lot of the old engines do that.

The only other issue possibly related is the oil pressure light coming on when the oil is hot particularly off throttle. I know the engine was rebuilt but I'm not sure to what extent. It takes pump gas and has a healthy exhaust note.


I also noticed tappet clatter and recently there is a more clock-like whirling sound when the engine is running. I suspect something is wrong with it but my mechanic doesn't seem to know the Packards well. I'm new to this type of car and it doesn't have the history with it. Could the oil pump be coming apart?

Posted on: 2014/10/11 20:46
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#2
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Don Shields
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Firstly, welcome to the world of Packard ownership and to packardinfo.com. Regarding the oil pressure light coming on after warmup at idle, that's normal. The '54 Packard Owner's Manual has this to say about the oil pressure indicator on page 7 of section 2: "This indicator sometimes will light up or will flicker when the engine is idling even though the idle oil pressure is adequate; however, the light should go out when the engine is speeded up. If the signal light remains illuminated after the engine speed is increased the engine should be shut off and the cause of the trouble determined and corrected." My oil light will always come on when idling, warm. If I shift the Ultramatic into neutral or rev the engine slightly, it will go out. It's been this way ever since I bought the car nine years ago.

Regarding the caking, if it is just carbon it should be non-metallic, although carbon can be very shiny and look metallic. It could just be a byproduct of combustion settling out of the oil and not particularly an item of concern as your mechanic stated. Still, you might want to check the choke and make sure it is opening fully after warmup. Also, you might want to check the crankcase ventilation system (the oil filler cap) and make sure the mesh filter is not clogged with dirt. If the engine sat unused for a long period I would also check the road draft tube on the right side of the engine to make sure it is open and clear. Insects and rodents can build nests in the weirdest of places.

Since this engine as well as the car line are new to you, the noises just might be normal; just about every engine series, antique or modern have their own auditory idiosyncrasies and can make noises that do not indicate trouble. Your mechanic may not be familiar with Packards but he should be able to recognize abnormal noises like bottom end rapping, top end/valvetrain noises, water pump bearing failing, etc. I don't know what an oil pump coming apart would sound like, but I'd imagine there would be detectible oil pressure problems should that be happening. If the noises are not very loud and he's unable to locate the source of the noise with his stethoscope they just might be normal for the engine. You could ask him if he thinks the noises are something you should worry about.

Posted on: 2014/10/12 1:10
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#3
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Tim Cole
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Hi Thunderbolt:

Given how expensive that motor is to repair I recommend sending a sample out for analysis.

If you go to any place that is doing diesel maintenance they can send a sample to the lab. What you get back is a sheet indicating if the debris is aluminum (pistons), Lead (bearings), or steel (gears and chains), or carbon (blow-by); and whether the percentages are in a danger zone.

Hope this helps and consider dropping the oil pan as well. That sort of sludge does accumulate in the pan and filter case due to condensation especially if the motor is being run for short trips.

Posted on: 2014/10/12 8:25
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#4
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Ernie Vitucci
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Good afternoon Thunderbolt...

When we first purchased out 1949 - 288, we had the same dirty oil almost right after changing the oil. We removed the pan and cleaned out the sludge that was in it. Roughly 3/8 inch of it. We also had the valves adjusted to remove the clatter. The old girl keeps her oil clean now. We change it every 1000 miles.

Ernie Vitucci, Caretaker of 'Miss Prudence' a 1949 2362 Deluxe

Posted on: 2014/10/12 14:46
Caretaker of the 1949-288 Deluxe Touring Sedan
'Miss Prudence' and the 1931 Model A Ford Tudor 'Miss Princess'
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#5
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Thunderbolt
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Thank you all. It seems the pressure is fine since the light goes out when I speed up.

I figured dropping the pan was in order after I found the sludge in the filter tank. And I also thought the valves need adjusting since the motor is now run-in.

As for the new whirling noise closer to the driver, I think it was the starter. Yesterday I drove to Lowes, came out, hit the starter, heard lots of clanging metal which sounded like the starter coming apart. I let the engine start and waited a moment while the flywheel teeth finished digesting the starter pinion and spring then drove it home. Pulled the starter today to find no pinion, some nashed flywheel teeth, and a crack in the starter drive housing. It's a Delco-Remy 1108008

I need a core to replace it. Will a '51 300 Ultramatic starter work on a '52 300 overdrive?

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Posted on: 2014/10/18 10:47
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#6
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PackardV8
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just out of curiosity is that a SIX volt car or has it been converted to 12 volt.???

Posted on: 2014/10/18 12:31
VAPOR LOCK demystified: See paragraph SEVEN of PMCC documentaion as listed in post #11 of the following thread:f
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7245
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#7
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Thunderbolt
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12 volts

Posted on: 2014/10/18 13:04
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#8
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HH56
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I need a core to replace it. Will a '51 300 Ultramatic starter work on a '52 300 overdrive?

That is not the first broken nose on the starter we have seen or heard about here on the forum. Typically the common thing is they were all running 12v on the 6v starter though. At the least it might be worthwhile to send your replacement to Jason or a local rebuilder to have 12v field coils installed.

Physically, believe all postwar inline 8 starters will interchange. They all bolt the same way and no distinction is made between Ultra and standard trans in the parts manual. Differences are in the brand and strength and now the solenoid is wired or engaged. Smaller engines had Bendix drives and not quite as much torque needed while the larger engines typically had the solenoid powered pinion engagement and some even had gear reduction starters.

Now sure how readily available new ring gears or new flywheels might be so that could pose a small problem.

Posted on: 2014/10/18 13:35
Howard
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#9
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Owen_Dyneto
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Except for adding 12-volt AC, I've never understood why folks convert to 12-volt, it offers no significant advantages. You can buy cheap little inverters to power 12-volt negative ground devices like GPS etc for a 6-volt positive ground system if desired. As HH says, damage pictured is typical of what happens to 6-volt starters on 12-volt conversions. Starter motors are reasonably plentiful as used units, finding a ring gear may not be that easy. There were some reproduction Packard ring gears but I don't recall who had them or for what engines. Might be a lot easier to find a used flywheel and after the starter is fixed, convert back to 6-volt unless you've already installed 12-volt AC. If you've done that, then have the starter rebuilt for 12-volt operation.

Posted on: 2014/10/18 13:42
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Re: Metallic oil in a 327 engine and running noises
#10
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PackardV8
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I'm wondering what kind of a voltage reducer might be available for the 6v starter motors operating on a 12v battery system. Something like the ballast resistor on 12v ignition systems. Of coure an ignition ballast reisistor wouldn't be heavy enuf for a starter demand.
I have several Ag 6v systems around here converted to 12v but retaining the 6v starter with no problems. But they are all small engines.

Maybe something else to research.

As for converting the 6v starters to 12 v windings i'm wondering how close something like a early 50's chev, F or Mopar armature and field windings would come to fit the Packard housings .

Posted on: 2014/10/18 17:24
VAPOR LOCK demystified: See paragraph SEVEN of PMCC documentaion as listed in post #11 of the following thread:f
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7245
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