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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Hans Ahlness
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Any wise-ness is welcomed here, Mark! Even wise-a**edness will work, never know what will spark an idea.

I thought of the water pump and generator too, but I had the knock when I first ran the engine with no belt, so those weren't in play. Just had the water pump rebuilt too, although that doesn't guarantee anything (like that stupid oil pressure gauge). And the lifters are hydraulic, and when I looked all that over when I had the valve covers off they all were free, rotating, and seemingly tight. Plus they did rattle when I had taken the oil pump apart the other day, quickly quieting when they got oil. But there could be one still not pumping up, couldn't there.

What's the best way to narrow down which, if any, lifter might be making noise? Play doctor with a stethoscope?

How about wrist pins? What kind of noise would they make if loose or broken, and how to diagnose?

Posted on: 2014/8/31 18:20
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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58L8134
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Hi

The method my professional mechanic friend uses to isolate the location of knocks is to use a metal rod, one end against the oil pan, the other to his ear. With the engine idling, he moves to each bearing location, listening for sharper knocks, notes any differences. It usually works quite well.

Although he hasn't had to diagnose any flatheads lately, it also works on their lifters. Even overhead valve-train knocks are easier to isolate this way.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Posted on: 2014/9/1 7:41
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Hans Ahlness
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I got all the new fuel lines hooked up from the new tank to the fuel pump, and installed an electric pump inline, ahead of the left rear wheel and inside the frame rail. I figure this is a little better for crashworthiness. Hooked my little battery charger up to the pump and pressurized the lines, which revealed a leak at the connection to the flexible line at the mechanical pump. So I had to redo the flare, then all was well. Car started and ran fine with the new fuel system, so we've moved past the derby car setup for that at least.

I also cleaned up the adjuster for the e-brakes, the nuts were so rusted that I could barely move them. Off to the bead blaster, ran a rethreader down the j-hook, new nuts and reinstalled and adjusted.

I used a wire brush and vacuum cleaner in the trunk area to get a start on all the dirt back there, it is apparent that this car suffered some damage in the right rear that was repaired by welding in (poorly) a new section of the trunk floor outboard of the spare tire well. It will hold, and be invisible once I repaint and seam seal everything back there.

Posted on: 2014/9/7 0:32
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Hans Ahlness
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Steve, I had a length of copper tubing handy so I tried out your listening technique with the engine running. Seems to be noise in the #2 - 5 area, maybe lifters. I didn't hear anything different in the bottom end so far. Next step will be to pull the valve covers and listen some more right at the possible source.

Posted on: 2014/9/7 0:37
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Hans Ahlness
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Spent some time this weekend cleaning up the interior surfaces of the car. I cleaned the remaining tar off the inside of the roof from the insulation panels that had pretty much fallen off with the headliner, then ground off any rusty spots and primed with Rustoleum Rusty Metal Primer. Then working my way down, I cleaned up the dirt and some rust on the rear hat shelf area, rear inner fenders, the headliner attach rails above the doors, and the pillars between the doors using wire brushes, drill with brush, grinder with stripper pad, air hose and vacuum cleaner. Then primed all that too.

Then I started on the floor, rusty where the rear carpet and front mat was but on the tunnel pretty good. By tonight I had done the left rear area, chipping off the old seam sealer and cleaning up rust then priming. A fair amount to go yet but at least I don't have any rust-through areas, pretty lucky.

I also removed the valve covers and ran the engine to see if my knocking was valve or lifter noise. There are a couple lifters that don't rotate, but they are free and I can spin the with my finger. I used my ear and the metal tube to listen at each valve, I cannot isolate any of them as the source of the noise. They are all getting oil flow, and don't appear to have clearance between the lifter and valve stems when running. But the noise does seem to be in time with some of the valves opening. It just seems to be higher in the engine, like a piston maybe?

How do I tell if there is too much valve clearance? I assume with the engine off just after a run, try to insert a feeler gauge at each one?

Posted on: 2014/9/14 19:40
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Ross
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Did we ever determine if you had hydraulic lifters or solids? Its easy to tell the solids as they will have wrench flats on them.

Since you have the front fender off why not go ahead and do a first class valve adjustment, by that I mean with the engine hot and running. It really isn't that hard: warm it up to operating temperature and have at it with two slender wrenches and feeler gauges. Should be able to pass .007 between the lifter and valve stem on the intakes, and .010 on the exhausts. As daunting as it seems, the whole thing will take maybe 16 minutes with the fender off. It is much harder working through the little access panel.

If you have hydraulics, finding the culprit is harder. I use a stethoscope and have to place the probe on the lifter barrel to be sure. Otherwise it all sounds the same to me. A telltale for a bad hydraulic is an excessive flow at its head, or even a little tail of oil.

Posted on: 2014/9/14 20:03
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Hans Ahlness
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It's a 327 with hydraulic lifters. Can you describe the excessive oil flow, what am I looking for? Most of the lifters have some oil flowing up around the top, I assumed that is a good thing to lube the wear surfaces of the lifter and valve?

And if there is excessive oil flow, would it indicate that the lifters aren't seating correctly and so wouldn't be pumping up?

Posted on: 2014/9/14 20:35
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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JD in KC
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Here's an example of a collapsed lifter. The source of the loud clack-clack-clack was easily determined in this case. The excessive flow of oil was obvious. This photo was taken with the engine running at approximately 500 rpm and using a very fast shutter speed on the camera.
Click to see original Image in a new window
.

The lifter body was firmly stuck in the cam follower. The top of the cam follower was broken in the attempt to remove the lifter. Major surgery followed.

Posted on: 2014/9/14 22:31
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Hans Ahlness
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Thanks for the picture JD, I'll look again and see which ones seem to be flowing more oil. With the lifter stuck, then the noise would be from excessive clearance correct? So I should be able to slip a feeler gauge in there too.

If I determine that some of the lifters aren't pumping up, what's the best concoction to add to the oil (solvent) to try to clean them up, and how long do I run it before changing the oil again? I am thinking that with this engine sitting for 40+ years that would be a good first step maybe?

Posted on: 2014/9/14 22:56
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: HA's 52 200 Grey Ghost
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Jim L. in OR
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I am going through the exact same thing with my '51 200 Deluxe, 327 with hydraulic lifters as you. Same noises same trouble isolating the noises, the whole 9 yards. What I am doing is pulling the head and removing all the lifters and cleaning them by taking them apart and washing in clean solvent. I found about three that were stuck and after washing seemed to work as they should. There is one exception that has the lifter body stuck in the tappet. I'm letting that go for know. One thing I should know is if there is noise after I close it all back up, I'll know who the guilty parties are. It doesn't seem to take much to mess these up. On the other hand I'm amazed that these engines will still run with so many things wrong.

Mine too set for a long time before being re-started by the couple I bought it from. I'm becoming convinced that the only thing to do with these engines, especially with modern gas - is if they have sat for any length of time, the valve covers should be pulled and all valves and lifters checked to see if they move correctly before ever attempting to start the engine. I know that's what I'm going to do.

Just my

Posted on: 2014/9/15 3:16
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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