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Ping In 359 Engine
#1
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Don Shields
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My 1954 Convertible pings under load in warm temperatures. It usually starts pinging after it's been driven 10 miles or so and will start pinging sooner on the return trip, even after the engine has had a complete cool down. Curiously, in December I had it in a holiday parade, the ambient temperature was just below freezing. The car ran constantly for over 3 hours, traveled 20 miles and didn't ping once the whole time.

I use premium fuel and add a booster that supposedly raises the octane to 108. This seems to lessen the pinging but hasn't stopped it entirely. A friend recommended advancing the timing 2 degrees. I hadn't looked into that because it starts and runs so well aside from the pinging. Checking into this, I found that I have no timing indicator for the vibration dampner. The dampner has markings on it but they're useless. This looks to be only part of the problem as the power steering pump prevents me from holding a timing light where they show it in the shop manual. There's no mention of this in the manual, but the distributor mounting bracket has markings on it and the disrtributor mounting boss has a line scribed into it. The distributor is mounted at 6 degrees advance. If that's so, I don't think it would be wise to advance it further; perhaps it should be set to zero as per the specs. Maybe a mechanic was looking at the specs for the 327 which calls for 6 degrees BTDC and so set this up wrong. What do you think? I'm leery when what I see deviates so much from the information in the shop manual.

Posted on: 2014/4/23 17:36
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#2
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Owen_Dyneto
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Lots of experience with this, a 54 Patrician was my daily driver back in the 70s and 80s. At (or beyond) what many considered to be the max compression ratio for a flathead engine of that design, your problem isn't at all unexpected or uncommon and at that borderline CR the aluminum head was a necessity. Do you still have the stock 359 head? If you have a 327 head it's going to very hard to eliminate the spark knock and still retain the full potential of the engine.

You don't want to advance the timing as your friend suggested, you want to retard it! And it is quite possible to use a timing light for the front vibration damper, even though it's close quarters, I've done it; but worst come to worst, just remove the power steering belt and move the pump out of the way. Don't rely on the marks on the distributor mounting plate, the distributor can be easily moved one way or the other within that plate so unless you first time the engine to 6 deg BTDC, and then move the plate to that index mark, those marks are entirely arbitrary.

IMO best thing to do is to use your timing light and set to 4 deg. BTDC and go for a test drive. If you've got a 327 head on the engine, start looking for a 356 head.

Posted on: 2014/4/23 17:49
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#3
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Don Shields
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Thanks, OD. The head is the original. The numbers "359" are molded on the top suface of the head, and back in '06 the aluminum rotted out around #1 cylinder, looking for all the world like a blown headgasket. I had the rotted area welded and the head reground (probably raising the CR yet a little more.)

In order to use the dampner markings I'm going to have to find a timing indicator first. It looks like it's a steel stamping that is held in place by one of the timing cover mounting screws, according to the sketch in the parts list. Once that's in place I'll have a point of reference for the dampner markings. I used to have a '37 120 that had similar distributor base markings. I don't recall it having any marks on the dampner. Perhaps it's a throwback to that earlier time. It's mighty odd to me that the shop manual is completely mum on this feature.

I'm glad that you think the timing should be retarded, that's the conclusion I came to in checking this out. Thanks again for your advice and counsel.

Posted on: 2014/4/23 22:42
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#4
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RichK
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Just out of curiosity, would an extra, or thicker, head gasket help?

Rich

Posted on: 2014/4/23 23:02
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#5
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Don Shields
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Rich, I thought about that back in '06 and decided against that. Headgaskets are the weakest point in the head-to-block sandwich, so I felt that a double or thicker gasket would just be inviting trouble. Pulling that head was something I wouldn't want to have to do twice if it could at all be avoided. Standard shop practice dictates a single standard thickness gasket should be installed as per the shop manual. So that's what I went with.

For my car, I'm thinking at this point that the timing was set for the 327 engine, which is way too far advanced for the 359 engine. Thanks for your input.

Posted on: 2014/4/23 23:36
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#6
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Owen_Dyneto
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I've encountered quite a number of situations where folks either had their head surfaced unnecessarily or excessively and didn't check valve clearance before buttoning up, resulting in bent valves. They all tried double head gaskets which never lasted beyond a few hundred miles. It's unfortunate that the extra thick "export" head gaskets are no longer available as it's the only easy solution to a head surfaced beyond limits.

Posted on: 2014/4/24 8:41
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#7
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Don Shields
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I've seen bent valves on OHV engines when the timing belt breaks. This happens when the owner ignores the recommended maintenance schedule. So I put dye on the top of the valves, put the head on without the gasket and cranked it over. No dye transferred to the head so I knew that there was enough clearance that bent valves wouldn't be a concern.

Posted on: 2014/4/24 9:39
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#8
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Owen_Dyneto
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Don, I do something similar. I put modeling putty on the high edge of each valve and lay head down on a used (already compressed) head gasket, crank the engine a few times and (assuming the head didn't "rock"), measure the thickness of the remaining "unsquished" putty to get an estimate of the remaining clearance.

Posted on: 2014/4/24 9:44
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#9
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Don Shields
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That's very clever, OD. The dye just tells me if there is any contact or not, but your method goes further in actually measuring the clearance. Very clever indeed.

Posted on: 2014/4/24 23:20
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
#10
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JWL
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Could the combustion chamber be cut so the valves do not contact the cylinder head on one that has been milled too much? Some piston tops, in overhead valve engines, have cuts for valve clearance. Doing the chamber instead of the piston would serve the same purpose.

(o{}o)

Posted on: 2014/4/25 10:52
We move toward
And make happen
What occupies our mind... (W. Scherer)
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