Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

West,

This forum provides a positive experience for me with a ton of information supplied by experts in the hobby!!

I am very thankful to everyone who takes the time to assist "us rookies" and provide guidance and valuable resources.

This post, as with many others, is a learning experience and reinforces what I have always said , people in the antique car hobby are genuine people who will help just about anyone willing to learn.

Regards,
Steve P

Quote:

And the car on ebay, which is where this thread started, has production #2026, so it appears as though it falls into this same early-car vent window situation.

I've just been communicating with steve516 about my front window regulators. He has a 1940 conv-sedan . His are out of the car and I hope to have some additional photos from him.

But that encounter led me to this thread. As I read it, I grew angry at the erroneous advice, cautions and conclusions posted regarding our early 1940 160 1377s as 'probably fake.'

I know that these particular posters realize that having that respect and authority is an awesome responsibility, impacting people who own or wish to sell this model by as much as $50,000...not to mention reputation of people who own them.

There was also an attack on the eBay seller, denigrating his expertise. Dave Charvet happens to be a friend of mine. He is an active member of the our regional PAC and a very reputable classic car dealer.http://www.charvetclassiccars.com
I thought those remarks were very mean spirited.

And as I read through the thread, I see Steve, as a newbie, doing what the experts should have been doing, researching and asking questions that finally brought this most respected group to the truth. And I am so relieved they admitted it, sort of. 'Wow I learned something.' The car was priced at $100K. It went for less than $50K and I suspect in part because of misinformed hobbyists making remarks questioning the car's authenticity at auction.

Back in the '70s, Jim Hollingsworth was in Portland staying at the Red Lion where I was setting up a show. He was standing next to the Duchess in the parking lot and the first thing he said was, 'Do you know you have an early 1940?" And then he pointed out the differences. I think most of them are listed in his 1940 Pivotal Year book and I think I've listed them in the Duchess Project blog a long time ago. I blame myself for not being on top of a 1940 160 convertible sedan thread. 5 pages of adamant misinformation could have been avoided.

You know I love you all and depend on your advice, but this did shake me up a bit. Like the first time, when you're a little kid, your dad hits another car.

to be frank and honest, any 1940-42 160 Convertible Coupe or Convertible Sedan with a replaced data plate may need to be evaluated to the maximum degree. Over 75% of these have been built from 120's and even the authoritative experts have "made up cars". Mr. Jim Hollingsworth told me in 1980 when he visited our house that he was building a 160/180 Station Wagon that was never originally built as a 160/180. Many 120 Darrin's and other open 120 series cars were converted to 356 engined cars by the experts. Without original previous paperwork and/or a correct original data plate there is NOTHING wrong with questioning these cars. A non-original data plate (with missing original data plate) or lack of documentation can greatly affect a cars value even if it is 100% legit.

By the way, you may know David Charvet well and he may be the greatest guy on the planet but there is NOTHING wrong with questioning a seller on the correctness of a car. His CAR was questioned in a public debate. that's life! That's what happens when a car is PUBLICLY advertised. And by the way his 1952 Hudson Hornet advertised in this link below has a 1953 Hood ornament and a 1953 Grille on it. Is it fair to state this?? this ad also says "correct labeled oil bath air cleaners".. there are not oil bath units and not correct for a 1952-3 at all.. As Ronald Reagan said we need to "trust but verify"

https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1046202/1952-hudson-hornet-for-sale-in-lake-oswego-oregon-97035

The comment I referenced was ad hominem not machina. The comments by other posters, some of the most respected Packard guys on this forum, about the seller and the vehicle were based on false assumptions...that have been clarified.

Only 149 1940 160 1377 Convertible Sedans were produced.
About 22-25 survive.

Somewhere exists a letter of Feb 5, 1940 that itemizes mid-year changes. I've read it but can't find it now. It gives reasons why the changes were made, mainly, some dealers didn't like some style items, re: hubcaps (paraphrased): "The red hexagon is a Packard trademark. The Packard script is a Packard trademark. One should not be stuck on top of the other." (The only reason, from a designer's standpoint, is that the combination looks so much better, and, it was used profusely for parts and service.)

Differences in early (Aug 18, 1939-Feb 1940) 1940 model 160 and late (Feb 1940 - July 1940)

1. Aug 31,'39: The fleur-de-lis trunk medallion was replaced by a Packard crest shield medallion. (Even my announcement day car was changed to the new crest.)

2. Added 3 'speed' chrome strips on the sides of the sidemount covers
3. Eliminated the Packard script-hexagon hubcap for a hexagon surrounded Packard and by the model number.
4. Changed the wood grain from silver aspen grain pattern and color to another.
5. Replaced the friction vent window with a cranked version
6. Data Plate of 5-column patent list (ending in RE-18,866) replaced by 4-column list (ending in DE-114-114,358).
7. Door panels changed. Leather extended to the bottom of the doors like the 120 on early models. Later models have carpeting across the bottom section, which may have eliminated some scuffing.
8. Marble Fudge dash plastic parts replaced with solid tan or grey. (I still have many fudge parts).

Your statement that 75% of all 1940 160 convertible sedans are "made up cars" is pure conjecture. There are at least 22 such models owned by PAC and PI members who may disagree.

Take consolation in the fact that everyone makes mistakes, but reckless statements about particular models may injure others.

I'm not worried. I have my original data plate, but I wouldn't put that piece of trash on my restored car. It makes me think of the guy, who points out that a screw head isn't correct, whose Caribbean is rusting on its hubs in his backyard, all-original, of course.

You may call it a public forum, but few posters use a genuine, original name as I do. Most use made-up names.

Jim Hollingsworth's 1940 station wagon was a 180, not 160, restored with a station wagon body on a genuine 180 chassis. It wasn't any big secret you'd only tell a close friend who came to dinner. And Packard offered options like this at the end of most years. Take your old body off, put this cooler one on. They even did it with 1930 734 speedsters pointy roadsters that can sell for a million dollars now.

Regarding your comment of "The comment I referenced was ad hominem not machina." I have no idea what your fancy latin? words mean. I do know that if someone is selling a 160 Convertible coupe or Convertible sedan and expect to get 160 money, you better be able to prove it and just not by conjecture. With all of these known 1940 model year changes you mentioned, it sure is easy to make one up now since the knowledge is there.

My statement that 75% of all 1940-42 senior convertibles are "made up cars" is INDEED PURE conjecture. But pure conjecture I've heard first hand from the experts, who own and restore them. You read my reply as "Your statement that 75% of all 1940 160 convertible sedans are "made up cars" is pure conjecture." You sure did not read what I wrote at all. I used for my percentage point of 75% ALL 1940-42 senior open cars, NOT SPECIFICALLY 1940 160 Convertible sedans. 1941's are cloned at a higher % rate, by conjecture of course. Please re-read what I actually wrote and not how you read it to be.

Regarding your statement "I'm not worried. I have my original data plate, but I wouldn't put that piece of trash on my restored car" Did anyone say you needed to put it on the car? We said it needed to be kept for authenticity purposes. To someone with no original plate: Why would you get rid of an original data plate and discard it??? by the way, your car is simply gorgeous and your long ownership history and dedication to restore it is truly awe-inspiring!

Your point was that this seller got way less money for his convertible sedan due to this forum and the fine folks on it. This forum merely "originally" questioned the fact that it could be a made-up car and apparently the eBay listing "at the time" did not convince the bidders of this also. Folks even KINDLY apologized for their statements that were incorrect. I guess you don't accept apologies? I've sure learned to accept them in life.

On your 1930 734 Speedster reference, I assume "pointy" means runabout or boattail speedster? Well here's two of them for sale now by the same dealer: The legit documented car is priced at over three times the price of the repro bodied car. Thus; a documented verifiable car is substantially more valuable and collectible than a clone, or unproven legit car, as was my point.

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/5895-1930-packard-734-speedster-runabout/

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6033-1930-packard-734-speedster/

Gentleman, please keep to the dignity of the Packard Automobile. Thank You. Ernie

I've read each entry in this thread as it developed and must say, there are many interesting observations, statements and claims made by a lot of different posters.

I think we all oft-forget how the written word can be so much more 'indelible' than with oral exchanges and it is so easy to descend into the classic 'war of words' with these emails.

I also think there is a lot of misinformation and even outright deception out there. When I went to buy my car (1939) it was advertised as a 120 and being the first-ever classic vehicle I have owned, I did a lot of checking and, in part, by asking the questions on this site, I was able to prove to the seller that it was not a 120, just a Six and the eventual sell-price reflected the proper reclassification. I truly don't know if it was an 'honest' mistake or not as the guy didn't really seem to 'know', one way or the other, but irrespective, it was certainly worth exercising due diligence and doing the homework to find out.

I certainly take to heart and agree with Joe Santana's comments about not being 'mean-spirited' in questioning and qualifying this info but can also see Caribbean Dude's point about it being 'fair and open game' to ask the questions.

Ill-will is a nasty thing on a forum like this and I know only too well how easy it is to get one's back up if we feel we are being impugned or assailed, but a pause and a collective 'deep breath' might not be a bad thing here. Yes/no?
Chris Goodfellow

Chris, to answer your question, Yes! .... We just don't want to see someone get burned, which happens too much in this hobby nowadays.... cloned cars, buckets of bondo, fake data plates, restamped blocks.. It's rampant..but thankfully not so much in Packard-land as other makes.... "may the buyer beware" is indeed true, but when a potential buyer asks questions on this fine website and the answers (some right- some wrong) hack off someone on this site who chastises others who are honestly just trying to help, it just ruffles my feathers..

How to get Burned:

Example: A "made-up" 1940 Packard 180 Convertible Sedan Darrin: yours for $189,000http://davidsclassiccars.com/packard/39343-1940-packard-darrin.html This,imho,is a $80,000 to $100,000 car max

A real one, worth every penny of it's selling price at $341,000https://www.rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/MO12/Monterey/lots/r146-1940-packard-super-eight-one-eighty-darrin-convertible-sedan-by-howard-dutch-darrin/280733