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« 1 2 (3) 4 5 6 ... 12 »

Re: SP merger
#21
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Steve203
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Yes, Studebakers had the length, but not the width. When you are packing Ward, June, Wally and the Beav in for a day at Friend's Lake, it's the width that matters.

55 Plymouth 74.6"

55 Chevy 73.8"

55 Ford 75.9"

55 Studebaker 69.5"

55 Packard Clipper 78"

Then there's the problem under the hood. The Studebaker V8 was fine, but the big three entry level 6s displaced 230cuin give or take. The Studebaker Champion 6 was designed with no room to grow, so it would be cheap and light, and in 55 it was a puny 186.

It was a physical and financial impossibility for Studebaker to make a competitive "full size" sedan by the mid 50s.

Posted on: 2015/3/2 20:23
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Re: SP merger
#22
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Quote:

johntrhodes81 wrote:
The vast difference in size between Packard and Studebaker Products, makes it seem that Packard+Hudson and Nash+Studebaker might have been better combinations.

John


I had the same thought, though a Studebaker/Nash hookup would have required the immediate closure of South Bend assembly, otherwise it's out of control overhead would drag down AMC the way it dragged down S-P. That shut down would be resisted by the Studebaker stockholders and board members.

The South Bend foundry and engine plant would remain open to provide the V8s that Nash desperately needed.

With assembly consolidated in Kenosha the Ambassador would be the donor for the President/Land Cruiser and the Statesman the donor for the Commander/Champion. Then the larger 56 Rambler would replace both the Statesman 6 and Champion. Leaving the Statesman/Commander with the Studie 259 and the Ambassador/President with the 289, possibly with a supercharger option as the Ambassador was one big heavy car. The Studie V8 was exceptionally stout and able to take the pressure of a supercharger.

Posted on: 2015/3/2 20:36
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Re: SP merger
#23
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Mahoning63
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Lots of good thinking, Steve203, you're really encouraging fresh and thought-provoking conversation with these recent threads. Much appreciated.

JJN seemed to structure the entire S-P deal so that he, not the company he served, came out on top. Just like Mason, his first priorty was to be in charge. The Achilles Heel that ultimately led Packard to its doom?

Always liked the idea of Studes rolling down EGB. Don't know much about how the two lines were up but theoretically it was possible to configure one for the Studebaker chassis. Both it and Packard were body on frame so the basic assembly sequence would have been similar.

The timing to do it in 1954 or 55 would have been razor thin, Nance getting the notice from Chrysler in late '53 about Conner and probably taking several months to decide what to do, while beginning negotiations with Studebaker. Seems he felt he had Clipper "in the bag" so no need to fill EGB up with even more volume. Clipper was another of his big mistakes, he would have really needed to hit a styling home run in '57 to make the new brand resonate, and by the looks of the clays we've all seen, not sure it was even a base hit.

Posted on: 2015/3/4 19:25
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Re: SP merger
#24
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Steve203
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Always liked the idea of Studes rolling down EGB.

Problem was, by the time the S-P merger was done, fall 54, Packard was already committed to Conner. All the line equipment at EGB had been pulled up and moved to Conner. Conner could barely push 50,000 cars out the door. There is no way they could have built 150,000 Studebakers in Detroit.

Nance getting the notice from Chrysler in late '53 about Conner

According to the Ward book, the word had been on the street for months that Briggs was for sale. Walter Briggs died in January 52. The kids wanted money. The sale should not have been a surprise to anyone at Packard.

<i>JJN seemed to structure the entire S-P deal so that he, not the company he served, came out on top.</i>

By some accounts Nance rejected Mason's merger proposal in spring 54, because the plan called for Nance to be "President of the Packard Division", while Nance, with a whole two years in the industry, wanted to be handed the top job. Studebaker had the virtue of Vance and Hoffman being willing to step aside. So with no due diligence, platform sharing a pipe dream, obsolete facilities, an unproductive workforce and uncompetitive, obsolete products, Nance pressed ahead.

Posted on: 2015/3/4 20:19
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Re: SP merger
#25
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58L8134
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Hi Steve203

"I had the same thought, though a Studebaker/Nash hookup would have required the immediate closure of South Bend assembly, otherwise it's out of control overhead would drag down AMC the way it dragged down S-P. That shut down would be resisted by the Studebaker stockholders and board members."

This is the crux of the difficulities of any combination which included Studebaker: management, labor and shareholder would never have gone for the drastic consolidation and integration that Mason was able to affect with Hudson. Certainly, South Bend had much to lose if such happened; other Detroit automaker absorbed Hudson's displaced, no other South Bend carmakers existed to do so. Studebaker would have brought a few beneficial assets such as Chippewa, the foundry and V8 engine. Unfortunately, those were mixed in with out-of-control labor costs, antiquated factories and uncompetitive products, a poisonous situation. One can be sure if any whiff of a major consolidation away from South Bend got out before the ink was dry, the deal would have been off, way off. As cruel as it is to say, as long as Studebaker remained an intransigent mess, it should have been allowed to collapse before anyone acted.

But if such a Nash-Studebaker merger had come about, the President/Ambassdor and Statesman/Commander built off those platforms, was well as Champion/Rambler combines could, if differentiated and priced non-competing with their line-mates, have formed the effective basis for high lower-priced volume. Given their respective market emphasis up to that point, the fit was better than any that could involve either with Packard.

A Hudson-Packard tie-up was the better proposition. On the surface, although Hudson also had a currently uncompetitive product line, its still was an established, respected medium-priced car which Clipper really wasn't, nor would be. For most of their histories, neither had competed with the other in their main arenas, only minor overlap of models and prices. Along with the badly-needed body plant came the dealer network, a strong performance identity, engineering and manufacturing experience with unibody-lowered chassis developments. Hudson could have covered the medium-priced segment, no Clipper necessary, allowing Packards to finally be exclusively prestige/luxury cars again. It would have taken a decade or more to re-establish Packard as a real luxury contender. Whether it would have ultimately gone the way of Imperial can't be known. Besting Cadillac always would remain the ideal, though striking out on a path not tread by Cadillac as M-B did was a better long-term course.

"...........while Nance, with a whole two years in the industry, wanted to be handed the top job. "

Ferry and the BoD are forever to blame for hiring an executive with no prior automotive industry experience then depending upon him to somehow understand immediately the intricacies and machinations necessary to navigate the rapidly-evolving situation that was putting all independents in a death-grip. Nance, with his mega-ego, confidently accepted their charge and blundered ahead, always with his own personal advancement paramount.

Had the principals understood the unique nature of their industry demanded leaders with knowledge only gained from inside experience, a much more capable executive would have been chosen. Extricated from the madness of Kaiser-Frazer after the 1949 model showdown with Henry Kaiser, Joseph Frazer should have been there first choice to take the helm when Christopher was boosted out the door. Failing to get Frazer, other experienced, dynamic management prospects should have been courted from other carmakers. After all, Packard wasn't above raiding GM for talent when developing the 120, they shouldn't have been when their very survival was a stake.

Steve

Posted on: 2015/3/6 17:28
.....epigram time.....
Proud 1953 Clipper Deluxe owner. Thinking about my next Packard, want a Clipper Deluxe Eight, manual shift with overdrive.
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Re: SP merger
#26
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Steve203
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Ferry and the BoD are forever to blame for hiring an executive with no prior automotive industry experience

It had been over two years since Christoper was fired. Apparently there wasn't anyone in the industry willing to take on Packard.

Extricated from the madness of Kaiser-Frazer after the 1949 model showdown with Henry Kaiser, Joseph Frazer should have been there first choice to take the helm when Christopher was boosted out the door.

Frazer was 60 in 52. Not excessively old but the "fire" he had to run a car company in 46 was pretty well extinguished. iirc from the information I read last year about K-F, Frazer didn't live in the Detroit area anymore, but commuted from Rhode Island. While booted out of management in 49, Frazer stayed on the K-F board until his name was taken off the company in 54. The bios I see do not indicate Frazer worked anywhere after K-F. Looks like he was so burned out he just hung it up.

(Hudson) still was an established, respected medium-priced car which Clipper really wasn't,

Here's one to chew on: what if Packard had been able to scrape up the money to buy Auburn, when it went bankrupt in 37? Auburn was established as a mid market maker of stylish six and eight cylinder cars. Use the Auburn name on the 115, instead of devaluing Packard. And invite existing Auburn owners to turn to their local Packard dealer for parts and service.

What actually did happen to Auburn was that someone did buy their entire parts inventory, brands and trademarks, in 38 for $85,000. Another $25,000 bought the building in Auburn. He had a nice business selling Auburn parts and servicing Auburns that people brought to Auburn, until 1960, when he sold the brands and tradmarks, and a still significant parts inventory, to another party in Oklahoma.

Posted on: 2015/3/6 20:09
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Re: SP merger
#27
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ECAnthony
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Or, Packard could have bought Studebaker in 1938, before the Champion came out. The 120/110 could have been dropped with the Champion carrying the mid-priced banner, while "Packard" would be reserved for the high-priced line.

Posted on: 2015/3/6 22:23
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Re: SP merger
#28
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Steve203
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Quote:

ECAnthony wrote:
Or, Packard could have bought Studebaker in 1938, before the Champion came out. The 120/110 could have been dropped with the Champion carrying the mid-priced banner, while "Packard" would be reserved for the high-priced line.


The problem with Studebaker in 37-38 was the company was out of bankruptcy and a going concern, so the price would have been a lot higher. If they tried to do a stock deal, they would have the same divided management problems that they had in 55. With the Champion in the works, Studebaker management would not have been in a mood to deal. The only Studebaker that could have filled a mid-market niche for Packard was the President, but producing the President at E Grand would have left unused capacity at South Bend, and leaving the President in South Bend would result in unused capacity on E Grand.

Auburn had the virtue of being in liquidation. Packard could have left the Auburn and Connersville plants behind, while moving the parts inventory and new Auburn production to Detroit. Lever their existing plant and equipment, lever their existing dealers and lever the existing Auburn clientele, without all the baggage that a going concern would bring.

Posted on: 2015/3/7 1:26
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Re: SP merger
#29
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Mahoning63
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In taking on Auburn, Packard would have been left in the same situation the 115 created... having to fund, develop and manage too many product lines for its size, and having no profitable Senior. Distractions born of volume fever, that's all these low-priced fantasies on Packard's part were. With the success of the One Twenty they thought the 115 would be a cake walk up to what, 200000 sales per year? Who has the BoD minutes for 1935-6 when 115 was being planned? What was the volume call? And what were Auburn sales in these years? Hadn't they tanked?

Packard needed to focus all energies on one thing in 1938: reconciliation of its Junior/Seniors onto the all-steel One Twenty line and showcasing a hot style with lower-slung proportions. In broad terms, a repeat of 1924.

Posted on: 2015/3/7 7:01
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Re: SP merger
#30
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Mahoning63
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Steve's suggestion to call in Joe Frazer for one last fling in the ring, or at least snagging someone from the big OEMs makes sense. Packard needed experience in high places.

If it did have to be Nance, the BoD should have at least found an experienced car person to be his right hand man and given this chap weighty authority, held Nance's feet to the fire if this guy reported back that big decisions were not being well thought out.

Posted on: 2015/3/7 7:13
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