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I have been looking at pictures of a 51 Dietrich limo. Condition is claimed to be excellent and the pictures back that up for a newbie with no real knowledge to back up his oohs and aahs with hard questions......
Anyone got good idea on the value?
It may be Canadian built, does that affect the value?
The engine was swapped out for a 54, but the original engine is included for future rebuild and reinstall. What does that do to the value?

In order to evaluate the opportunity what do I need to find out? VIN/body number, what is wrong with the engine, etc etc

Thanks

Jim

There were apparently 4 1951 Dietrich-designed (actual builders unknown) cars but none were limousines, all were based on the standard Patrician body and 127" wheelbase chassis; two are believed to have survived.

There were also apparently 4 limousines that were Dietrich-designed and built by Henney on a 149" wheelbase, but these are 1952 models; one has survived but is in terrible condition, you can find photos of it on The Packard Club forum. What little information exists on these cars can be found in the Robert Neal book on 51-54 Packards and I suggest you start your study with that book. One of the curiosities on the 52 limos is the source for the 149" frame as A.O. Smith didn't begin supplying Packard with a frame of that length until a bit into the 1953 model year. For a historically significant car an incorrect engine certainly would have an adverse affect on value.

http://www.packardclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1519

PS - Ray Dietrich closed his last shop in Grand Rapids, MI in 1953 and went to work for Checker in Kalamazoo. Some of his early 1950s commissions in addition to Packard were for Lincoln, Ford & Checker. An extensive biography of him at Coachbuilt.com

Hi Gonesouth

Interesting Packard, the rarity alone elevates the value to some degree, now to each question.

"In order to evaluate the opportunity what do I need to find out? VIN/body number,........ etc etc"

The VIN, body number and engine number should be the first things to document for analysis. The VIN will be used to determine if this is a known car, document by Robert Neal in his book: Packard 1951-1954. It might be an previously unknown survivor. The body and engine numbers will reveal much about it as well.

"It may be Canadian built, does that affect the value?"

Not to any great degree, it might have been prepared for export but should have a kilometer odometer if originally sold in your country.

The engine was swapped out for a 54, but the original engine is included for future rebuild and reinstall. What does that do to the value?


Although it would be a plus to have the original Patrician engine, as long as it is a nine-main-bearing Senior Packard 327 ci unit that would be fine. A five-main 327 ci Clipper-Cavalier would reduce the value, a 288 ci 200-Clipper unit a further detriment to value. A '54 engine could be a 359 ci Senior unit, considered the most desirable of that engine series.

"what is wrong with the engine,?

Determining the mechanical condition of this '51 Patrician is no different than it would be for any '51 Packard. Using good judgment one would when approaching a potential purchase of any old car applies: examine every functional system, determine their present condition and need for repairs-rebuilds.

This also applies to the condition of body and trim, it still is a production '51 Patrician that can develop all the body rust and deterioration to which all were subject. Look for the usual rusty rockers, quarters, interior and trunk floors, body mounts. The potmetal grille and taillights plus various trims are very susceptible pitting and chrome-loss and are very expensive restore, the stainless-steel trim much more durable, may still need straightening and polishing. Also what would be very costly to replace would be the wool broadcloth interior if it isn't well preserved. If it has the formal padded-roof covering, is that in good condition and correctly done, or in need of replacement.

"Anyone got good idea on the value?"

You'll need to supply more detailed information for the participants to give you a realistic current value range. I look forward to hearing more about this rare Patrician, wish you good luck in your investigation and pursuit of it.

Steve

....it might have been prepared for export but should have a kilometer odometer if originally sold in your country.

Though Packard did offer speedometers in kilometers for export to some countries, I'm not certain that was the case for cars destined for Canada - showing my ignorance but was Canada metric in the 50s?

Thanks, Steve.
That is very useful information and helps me move forward on this. but what detailed information do people need to hazard a guess at value?

Just as a point of interest, cars metricized in Canada in 1976-77, so anything built before then would be in miles.

Thank you Owen, that is good information.....so a wheelbase measurement would confirm it as a 51 Patrician base. And, yes, you are right, Canada didn't go metric for cars until 1976-77.

Coming back to the Dietrich limo, are there specific features that would confirm it as a Deitrich even if not really a limo?

Thanks

Jim

Hi Jim

Yes, the 127" wb would verify a '51 Patrician basis, which are identified by Series No. 2406, Body Style No. 2452. This later number would be found as 2452-2###. From what is document in the late Mr. Neal's excellent book, five Dietrich custom-bodied cars were known. The main distinguishing feature is the installation of a powered, flat-glass partition window, with robe rail and wood frieze molding to the rear upholstered in wool broadcloth. The front compartment is leather upholstery in one surviving car, others is broadcloth throughout. Four cars are listed with the standard, three-piece, wrap-around rear windows, the fifth unknown. This is specified as the other custom body company, Derham of Rosemount, PA, who created formal custom Patricians as well frequently included a formal padded canvas top and small limousine-style rear window. Both custom shops applied their coachbuilder chrome script on the front fender near the door opening, Dietrich just above the trim spear. The attached photos show one of the survivors, owned in your nation.

Of the five documented cars, two are owned by club members. Two were in California, one of which was scrapped in 1972. The last was a Florida car, then found its way to New York and "Possibly survives". The way cars get around, this may be the car you've discovered. The Firewall No. is listed, it begins with A7####, after you get the number of this car, I'll verify if its a match.

Essentially, what Dietrich was creating were chauffeur-driven cars for the tiny carriage-trade still left who weren't after a long-wheelbase model. If you are fortunate enough to have found it in reasonably good and/or restorable condition, it would be a worthwhile restoration project of a late custom Packard.

Thanks as well for the information that Canada went to the metric system in 1976-77. We had a "Go Metric" campaign here that pretty much just died from indifference.

Steve

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Steve, Sent you a PM

this is a known car that was in California for years that is now in Calgary, Canada area for sale. It was for sale with price listed earlier this year, It was advertised on the web on a Canadian website. I talked to the owner's brother who listed it and a club member who knows the car and says these are old pictures and even though the car is nice it's now not quite as nice as the photos.

I would have bought it if it wasn't so dang far away from me

I thought the price was very fair on it at 15K


good luck

Caribbeandude you are right. I spoke to the seller this morning and expect to hear back with body and firewall numbers. He told me that he bought it in California and drove it back a number of years ago. It is currently powered with a 288, but the deal includes an optional 9 bearing senior 327 that is partially disassembled and could be rebuilt and installed.

It is his understanding that it was built on the line in Detroit as apparently Packard owned the Dietrich name at that point.

While the car and price are attractive
It is about 3000 miles from me, and flights would be $1000 return to go looking and getting it home would cost more than that.......tough decision.

On the other hand, it would be a special car to own, one that both my wife and I could drive, and wouldn't need much restoration........the back seat has sun damage to the broadcloth unless I wanted to put the original type 327 back in.