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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2008/3/21 18:20
Posts: 2287
If the engine has been "rebuilt" not toooo long ago there should be no significant ridge and there is not need to touch it unless you were going to slap some rings in. Which, as far as you have gotten, I probably would. Find or borrow some way to measure your bores right below the ridge and also close to the bottom.

Posted on: 8/6 13:20:18
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2010/8/18 5:19
From Viola, ID (but living in Norfolk, VA)
Posts: 870
A few more pictures. Intakes on 3 and 4, them closeup of 8, 3, and 1 respectively. Donít mind the debris- I havenít re-vacuumed yet.

Ross, hadnít thought about re-ringing. Think itís necessary with my leak down and compression? Not opposed, just makes for a little bigger job.

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Posted on: 8/6 15:24:32
_________________
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partially restored (Sold Hershey 2015)

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6550&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


Past Packard storage locations:
Amelia Island, FL
Saratoga Springs, NY
Viola, ID
Groton, CT
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2010/8/18 5:19
From Viola, ID (but living in Norfolk, VA)
Posts: 870
Well, inspection says... the engine has never been rebuilt!

Tops of the cylinders, just below the ridge, mic out at 3.255 to 3.256. The bottom of cylinders 1 and 8 mic out at 3.251 and 3.250.

So. After consultation w/Ross, I'm going to do the following:

1. Hone and re-ring.
2. Inspect timing chain, replace if worn.
3. Valve hone, or possibly valve grind.
4. Inspect rod journals, install new bearings.

Haha - so much for a simple head gasket job :)

Maybe the car will finally run like a Packard should when I'm done.

If I end up needing to do the timing chain, I'll pull the front clip and check the radiator and water distribution tube too. If not, that will wait until I have a bigger garage.

Posted on: 8/7 8:06:47
_________________
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partially restored (Sold Hershey 2015)

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6550&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


Past Packard storage locations:
Amelia Island, FL
Saratoga Springs, NY
Viola, ID
Groton, CT
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
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Joined:
2009/9/30 11:25
From Dayton, OH, USA
Posts: 329
Ken, that sounds exactly like the state of my engine when I began the rebuild.

Posted on: 8/7 16:55:16
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2010/8/18 5:19
From Viola, ID (but living in Norfolk, VA)
Posts: 870
Pat.. ugh...

If I was restoring, I would rebuild. Iím going to do a frame in rebuild, drive it, and hopefully get 30k miles out of it before I need to fully rebuild.

I donít have the time or the space for a rebuild now - 5 years, and I will. Of course, I said the same thing with my 115, then screwed up a valve seat so badly that I had no choice! Trying to avoid that.

Posted on: 8/7 17:13:56
_________________
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partially restored (Sold Hershey 2015)

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6550&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


Past Packard storage locations:
Amelia Island, FL
Saratoga Springs, NY
Viola, ID
Groton, CT
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2010/8/18 5:19
From Viola, ID (but living in Norfolk, VA)
Posts: 870
Well, managed to squeeze in some Packard work around a busy weekend.

- Front clip pulled, and safely stored at a fellow old car enthusiasts house. I scratched the car pretty badly - didn't have enough help lifting the clip off, and I caught body with the back edge of the clip.


- Inspected the timing chain. Just over 1/2" of play, so I'm going to replace it. Likely the gears as well, but I need to inspect them closely first.

- Water distribution tube pulled. Some mung on it, but nothing too crazy.

- Need to decide what to do with the radiator. I bought a flush gun, so I think I'll reverse blast it, then flow test it. I am a little leery about sending it out for testing since it can't be pressurized.

- Reamed all of the cylinder ridges out. Next step- measure rod journal bearing clearance, and pull and inspect the pistons.

Also - what is the welting supposed to look between the body and front fenders? Mine was some junky plastic with a 1/8" diameter piece of what looked like bike cable housing to give it the shape. Any source recommendations?

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Posted on: 8/10 9:21:29
_________________
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partially restored (Sold Hershey 2015)

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6550&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


Past Packard storage locations:
Amelia Island, FL
Saratoga Springs, NY
Viola, ID
Groton, CT
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2010/8/18 5:19
From Viola, ID (but living in Norfolk, VA)
Posts: 870
Got all of the pistons pulled today. Everything seemed pretty tidy, lots of carbon, but I didn't see any broken rings or obvious problems.

Rod bearing clearance was uniformly 0.002 to 0.0025, so definitely room for improvement there, since the spec is 0.0005 to 0.0015. My connecting rod journals mic'ed out at 2.0940 to 2.0945, and I'm confident that a few ten thousandths of that is attributable to operator error! So I plan to replace the rod bearings with stock size, vice 0.001 undersized.

Now that I have all the pistons out, the next steps are re-checking cylinder taper in all holes, cleaning and inspecting the pistons, and ordering parts.

Are piston expanders available if I find that the pistons are more than 0.006" in diameter under the point of maximum cylinder wear? (Referencing the 41-48 Engine Manual, paragraph 4 on Piston Inspection).

I don't have the tools to verify connecting rod alignment (Connecting Rod Aligning Jig J-874-PA), so I'll visually check for straightness, etc.

I'm also going to check the piston pins for obvious looseness, misalignment, etc. Hoping to avoid replacing anything here because I don't have the machine tools to ream things myself and my shop is SLOW, but I'll replace if I need to.

A few pictures will follow when I get back to them.

Posted on: 8/11 12:45:50
_________________
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partially restored (Sold Hershey 2015)

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6550&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


Past Packard storage locations:
Amelia Island, FL
Saratoga Springs, NY
Viola, ID
Groton, CT
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Forum Ambassador
Joined:
2007/3/14 16:01
From New Jersey
Posts: 16173
As an alternative to piston expanders you might consider having the skirts knurled which also effectively increases the skirt diameter, assuming you can find someone who still has that equipment. Knurling worked very well for me years ago on several engine refreshing jobs.

If you're willing to disassemble and redo the wrist pins, I very strongly recommend having the connecting rods professionally checked for alignment and straightness.

Posted on: 8/11 13:18:09
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2008/9/29 7:39
From Cordova, TN
Posts: 1273
Hi Ken, I see you have the gray dollies. I don't know about yours but I got mine from Harbor Freight. They worked great when I first got them, had no problems pushing the car around by myself and I enjoyed being able to slide under the car to work on it. But after being on them for a couple of years the wheels sprung and now it is impossible to move the car, I thought maybe old age getting weak but even with my sons help we couldn't move it. And it's not that easy or cheap to get replacement wheels.
Just to let you know.
Wes

Posted on: 8/12 13:05:41
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Re: Ken's 1937 120 Touring Sedan
Home away from home
Joined:
2010/8/18 5:19
From Viola, ID (but living in Norfolk, VA)
Posts: 870
Owen - thanks for the advice! I inspected the wrist pins, and everything is tight, no odd wobbles or movement. So, unless something changes, I don't think I'll pull the pistons off the rods. If I do, I'll take the connecting rods to a machine shop and have them checked out.

Wesley - yes, the dollies are from Harbor Freight. I haven't had any problems with them, but I don't use them too often. Hope you can find some new casters.

I measured cylinder taper, and think I'm in good shape. The max taper is 7 thousandths on #2. Minimum was 3.8 on #6, and average was 5.5. The Packard motor manual says you should re-bore the cylinder at 7-10 thousandths, but up to 14 was acceptable if the customer wanted to save money.

What I don't understand, is that the motor manual says to use piston expanders if the skirt is more than 6 thousandths under in diameter from the point of maximum cylinder wear. My max delta is 9.1 thousandths between the piston skirt and point of max wear, and the average is 7. But, the average difference between piston skirt diameter and the bottom of each bore is only 1.8 thousandths. Wouldn't piston expanders, or knurling, to correct the first condition make the pistons too tight in the bore by making them bigger than the cylinder at the bottom of each bore?

No smoking gun yet on why the engine didn't run smoothly. Lots of carbon, and the timing chain was slack (1/2-5/8" between the gears). I hoping that that, new rings, and a valve grind, will give me good service.

I am concerned about all the oily carbon buildup on the valves and cylinders. Could that just be caused by rich running? I've only put a few hundred miles on the car in the time I've owned it, and if the odometer is right, it has only been driven 5,000 miles 1953. While I've owned it, it doesn't seem to use any oil. Should I be looking for a problem somewhere else?

Interestingly, all the pistons I've cleaned off are also stamped 55, in addition to having the cylinder number and the letter code indicating their size variance. Not sure if that means anything.

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Posted on: 8/12 19:59:38
_________________
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partially restored (Sold Hershey 2015)

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6550&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0


Past Packard storage locations:
Amelia Island, FL
Saratoga Springs, NY
Viola, ID
Groton, CT
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