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Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#1
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Lex
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The fuel tank in my Knackered Packard arrived uninstalled, with extensive internal rust and a 6x8in hole carved into the top with an angle grinder. Sloppy work from a shipper who needed to be sure the tank was drained, apparently. I'm trying to talk a local chemical stripping place into dipping the tank to remove the paint and rust to repair it. Trying to confirm a few details about the Ford sending units specific in the cross-reference.

Has any fitted Ford PN B7A-9275-F to a 1953? The cross-ref specifies it for 1955-1956 vehicles, and Kanter's tempting all-new tank is specified for 1951-1956. So I'm probably good, but confirmation from anyone who's already been through this can save some time. The good news is, the car will have a small 6V power supply for the horns and gauges, so I don't need to futz with finding a 12V sender or adapting the 6V circuitry.

Posted on: 2016/7/22 13:12
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#2
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fredkanter
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The tank sender works for both 6 and 12 volts

Posted on: 2016/7/22 13:16
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#3
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HH56
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On the Ford sender you have to be careful of the arm length. Apparently there were two sizes used and some have had issues when buying the wrong length arm. I believe the one you linked is correct but won't swear to it.

Several have had tanks repaired -- some by Renu and some by local radiator shops. On the seriously damaged tanks the prices reported have all been in the neighborhood of the repro tanks. You can get prices for all the work your tank needs but quite frankly from the description of its condition, after getting some quotes I would investigate getting a repro.

Posted on: 2016/7/22 13:20
Howard
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#4
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Lex
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I'm honestly surprised an all-new tank is just $350. Considering how much labor it will save, that's seriously tempting. Depending on the cost of stripping, welding, and resealing my current tank, don't be shocked if I just pick up a new one.

Still getting used to how analog this car is. An entirely passive fuel level sensing circuit seems like withcraft compared to the 3-wire jobs I'm used to. HH56, do you know if anyone has the correct arm measurement handy?

Posted on: 2016/7/23 0:01
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#5
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HH56
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Here is the Packard sender. As you can see the arm has a slight bend and total length is just shy of 8 inches.

Am curious about your "small 6v power supply for the horns and gauges". The gauges actually work on 5v so if you keep the existing instrument voltage regulator in the circuit and run that off the power supply it should be adequate. You can also get a 54-56 instrument regulator from a parts car, vendor or maybe Mike Dulinski and power that to run the instruments directly off 12v, Some Ford instrument regulators will also work but I don't have a number for those.

Am more concerned about using a power supply for the horns. A pair of horns can easily pull 25 amps so "small" might not cut it but more importantly is if the power supply is rated for coils, motors or other inductive loads. Some are but most are not and any inductive load or something that has a large instantaneous current draw could make an ordinary power supply that was built for lights, solid state radios and stuff like that self destruct in a matter of seconds.

Also don't forget the heater blower and the stock radio (if you are keeping it). The starter solenoid needs to change and more importantly the starter motor is a concern. If you are planning on using the stock motor on 12v be advised that several posters over the last year or so have had the nose of the starter crack or break off suddenly for unexplained reasons. The only common denominator was all had been using the stock 6v starter on 12v conversions. It is surmised the reason for the breaking is because the extra voltage is providing so much extra torque and speed that it was slamming the pinion into the stop at the end of case hard enough to break the casting.. Some that went thru the experience had their starters converted to 12v to avoid future problems.

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Posted on: 2016/7/23 10:09
Howard
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#6
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Hans Ahlness
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There was a 6 to 12v conversion discussion a while ago, here it is-
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17129&forum=2&post_id=170287#forumpost170287

Like Howard points out, the existing voltage converter for the guages will work fine on 12v.

As far as the fuel tank, buy the new one and you're done fooling with it. Fits perfectly. Get their sender and you're done with that too.

Posted on: 2016/7/23 12:54
1952 Model 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
HA's 52 Grey Ghost

"The problem with quotes on the internet is you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#7
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Lex
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Quote:
As you can see the arm has a slight bend and total length is just shy of 8 inches.

Thanks for the measurement! I'll double check the Ford sender prior to installation, just in case of a mismatch.

Quote:
The gauges actually work on 5v so if you keep the existing instrument voltage regulator in the circuit and run that off the power supply it should be adequate.


Quote:
Am more concerned about using a power supply for the horns. A pair of horns can easily pull 25 amps so "small" might not cut it but more importantly is if the power supply is rated for coils, motors or other inductive loads. Some are but most are not and any inductive load or something that has a large instantaneous current draw could make an ordinary power supply that was built for lights, solid state radios and stuff like that self destruct in a matter of seconds.

I've been planning to measure the horns' current needs, but the 6V, 10A power supply I had in mind as a SWAG starter point will clearly be inadequate. 25A horns? No wonder they're so gloriously loud. Need to think about that one further. Good to know the stock voltage regulator will work for the instruments. I suppose the logical follow-up question is; will the horns last on 12V?

Quote:
Also don't forget the heater blower and the stock radio (if you are keeping it). The starter solenoid needs to change and more importantly the starter motor is a concern.


Solenoid will depend on how the starter shakes out, but I don't foresee any trouble with that swap. Plans are in the works for a blower motor. Hunting for a new 12V inline blower or a 12V motor with a similar case and shaft that can accept the original squirrel cage. Long-term plan is to put modern guts in the old radio fascia (several companies do this), so it will eventually be 12V, but it's not a concern for now. Reliable running and driving first.

Quote:
If you are planning on using the stock motor on 12v be advised that several posters over the last year or so have had the nose of the starter crack or break off suddenly for unexplained reasons. The only common denominator was all had been using the stock 6v starter on 12v conversions. It is surmised the reason for the breaking is because the extra voltage is providing so much extra torque and speed that it was slamming the pinion into the stop at the end of case hard enough to break the casting.. Some that went thru the experience had their starters converted to 12v to avoid future problems.


Running through those threads led me a on a goose chase for a modern 12V starter that would drop right into the Packard mount. Several different local shops, including a sizable rebuilder and recycler, had no ideas. Apparently the Packard mount was never used anywhere else. One of them did suggest running the stock starter motor on 12V, and shrugged when I mentioned the nose failure problems. No help there.

Struggling to even find someone in the area who will rewind the starter for 12V. I'd prefer to machine a new nose section for a modern starter, if I can find a suitable option (gear pitch, RPM, tooth count, throw distance, etc.), simply because the old one contains a scary amount of copper dust from the brushes. Feels like a short waiting to happen. Another reason for a modern starter is that I could make my original starter available to restorers. Odds are the Knackered Packard will never be fully original (a reliable driver is goal one), but I do want to keep the sheet metal unmodified and any parts I remove stored and available for the rest of the community.

Posted on: 2016/7/25 9:49
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#8
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HH56
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On directly hooking the instruments to 12v: There were two different instrument voltage regulators used. 51-53 used one part number and 54-56 used another. I do not know what the differences are. It could be a matter of capacity since some 55-6 models have a third instrument running off it or it could be input voltage range. Why a different item was introduced in 54 to work the same instruments as 51-3s had is unknown. Some articles say 54 was the targeted major change year which was pushed back until 55 so maybe that anticipated change was the reason and it was a matter of stocking parts.

Point being that we know 54-6 instrument regulators can work on both 6 or 12v and I suggested changing to that item. Perhaps HA52 or others have done it and proven the 51-3 can also work dual voltage but if not, I would use caution if you are going to run your original instrument regulator on 12v.

One place that has done a few 6 to 12v starter conversions is Advanced Electrical Rebuilders in Grand Ledge, Mi. No idea if it is limited to specific models or the cost but if you can't find someone more local maybe worth a call.

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Posted on: 2016/7/25 10:13
Howard
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#9
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Ross
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If you go to Ebay motors and search "Packard 12v mini starter" you will find a unit already modified to fit. He only lists it for 49-51 but I know they will for certain fit 48 to 54, and probably back to 35 juniors.

Posted on: 2016/7/25 10:34
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Re: Fuel sender & 12V conversion on a 1953 Clipper.
#10
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Lex
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Quote:

If you go to Ebay motors and search "Packard 12v mini starter" you will find a unit already modified to fit. He only lists it for 49-51 but I know they will for certain fit 48 to 54, and probably back to 35 juniors.

Ross, you just answered a question I created a fresh thread for. Maybe my millenial obsession with immediacy needs some work. Found that starter a while back, but haven't been able to confirm 26th series fitment until now. Are you using one?

Posted on: 2016/7/25 12:01
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