Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

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Not aftermarket necessarily. Packard factory heaters had mostly out of sight vertically mounted underdash switches on many of the prewar models. Some were illuminated and others not. quote]

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You are correct - well, as to the so called "Junior" models.

Bear in mind we might as well be talking about two different makes of cars - what came out the doors at the Packard factory were two different cars - products of the "junior" division and products of the "Senior" division. The only parts that were common to both divisions were the interior door handles and dome light fixtures. (even the headlamp lenses were different!).

The illustration you provided supports your statement - but again, only as to the "Junior Division".

Again, a factory-installed heating system in 1938 for the "Senior" cars had the switches thru the dash itself, as illustrated in the photo that started this thread - not hanging underneath.

Incidentally, both fire-wall mounted hot water heaters, and "aircraft type" manifold hot-air heaters were avail. as options on Senior division products. ( I do not recall the "manifold-hot air" type being offered on junior division cars ( I don't make this stuff up - I have worked on one or two Packards of that model year (oh maybe a few more?) A look at the Senior Division/s PARTS BOOK, wiring diagrams, etc., confirms what I think I know about this !)

There were no longer any hot air "manifold-type" heaters offered that late in the game. There was however the very highly regarded Kelch hot air heater which drew it's heat from a stainless steel heat exchanger on the exhaust header pipe, and it was available in both the junior and senior series. At least one 1939 Twelve is known with the Kelch hot air heater, and this is the last year it was offered. I have also seen an installation in a 1938 Eight (a/k/a 120).

I don't know if the Kelch installation on a '38 Senior car had it's own unique heater control switch or not, but I could ask the owner of that '39 with Kelch.

First 2 pages of a rather lengthy article I published some years ago on the Kelch heaters is below. Interesting heaters, and far more effective than the hot water heaters on those cars with just 160? F. shutter thermostats.

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Hello, although my super 8 have those two switches, they were not in use, so check it out. My car has heater and mounts on switch below the dashboard.

[quote]
Owen_Dyneto wrote:
There were no longer any hot air "manifold-type" heaters offered that late in the game. There was however the very highly regarded Kelch hot air heater which drew it's heat from a stainless steel heat exchanger on the exhaust header pipe, and it was available in both the junior and senior series.
# # # # # # # # #

Ha - you got me - I apologize - I used the wrong terminology. We are both talking about the same thing! Yes, I do remember your article - have that issue somewhere.

Well...I partially take back my apology - I don't recall ever hearing the term "Kelch" until I saw your article ! I presume that is the actual technical name the manufacturer used for his product - never saw that name used in any Packard literature that I have access to.

As you point out in your article, it was superior to hot water heaters, in that it provided cabin heat almost instantly.

Of course there was no such thing in that era as an actual manifold heater, nor is there such a thing in any aircraft I am familiar with. I just used that as a "generic" term; of course the "Kelch" went on after the "header" pipe flange. ( on my aircraft, there is a "wrap" around the muffler, so that outside air hits the header pipe to be heated before it enters the cabin).

Which leads me to a somewhat related question nobody has ever explained to me. What in #$$*$#@ were the engineers thinking in coming up with radiator shutters ( the "PINES WINTERFRONT" system )?

At some point in time, engineers figured out that the worst thing you can do to a motor is start it when it is cold, and the second worst thing you can do, is run it until it reaches operating temp.

Of course it is and has been universal practice for more than half a century to use a "pellet" type thermostat to shut off the water flow until it warms up.

At some point in time in the early years, they made the cylinder head with a provision for mounting a "modern style" thermostat to block the flow of water until it was hot.

Then - all of a sudden the Pines system starts showing up. Given the outstanding cooling systems of Packard products, now we have to wait till all the water in both the motor block and radiator are warm - takes much longer than if they'd left well-enough alone and continued to use "water shut-off" / "pellet" type thermostats now in universal use.

Yeah - the Pines system is pretty slick - I've left mine operational, but have modern "water shut-off" types to insure fast warm up.

So - who has any ideas as to why a system as goofy, expensive to manufacture and as inefficent as the Pines/shutter deal stayed in use clear to the end of production with the start of the 2nd World War ?

Kelch was the name of the company that manufactured the heater; if you look in the 1929 Packard Accessory Catalog you'll see that Packard identified it as the "Packard-Kelch Ventilating Heater" (page below. Pierce-Arrow also named it the Pierce-Arrow/Kelch. Also see the Packard-Francisco heater which was a true exhaust manifold heater - I believe the 7th Series was the last year that it was offered.

Except in extremely frigid conditions, engine warm-up with the Pines Winterfront is very rapid, probably little or no different that with a cylinder head thermostat. The reason for the 160? shutter stat was because methyl alcohol was the prevalent antifreeze of the era and above 160? it boiled off. Testing and topping off your antifreeze regularly during the winter was pretty much standard practice with methyl alcohol antifreeze. Methyl alcohol was still around when I first got my license, about 1958. Some folks continued to use it because it was very much cheaper than glycol. In that era Xerex was a common brand of glycol antifreeze, Xerone was their companion product methyl alcohol antifreeze.

My apologies for the digression off-topic.

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Wow - thanks for the info - you are obviously more familiar with the pre 1932 cars and their literature than I am.

Yes, of course the earlier cars with UPDRAFT carbs. had a manifold layout so it was then practical ( with no "down-draft" style intake manifold, carb., etc. in the way) to use a exhaust manifold "muff" for cabin heating. Never saw one on a 20's era Packard myself. New to me - thanks again!

( Side note - You may be aware of my prejudice that all Packards that do not have red closineau hub-cap emblems that say "PACKARD TWELVE" should be immediately shredded and sent to Japan where they can be made into something useful.....! )

We disagree on the Pines issue. Again, given the outstanding over-engineering of Packard cooling systems, I think you are wrong - no way in the world a PROPERLY MAINTAINED Packard cooling system can warm up as fast as blocking off the water flow at the cyl. head, ( as is universal in modern practice for well over half a century).

A list of present era cars with the Pines system compared to the modern practice of "pellet" types that cut off the flow of water at the cyl. head says it all! Again, my prejudice...the Pines Winterfront.....inefficient, costly, unnecessary.

Sorry, no practical way of complying with the request for a photo behind my own dash - too stuffed with wiring to make head-or-tail out of it.

As another side-note, I never understood the psychology of most of the pre-war Packard buyers. The guy who ordered mine new, paid extra for a number of fairly expensive options, including the factory radio. Yet he wouldn't shell out for the outstanding factory-installed heating system! Cant figure that out.

I am the second owner; and I like my creature-comfort - so yes, I installed a conventional "after-market" style "Packard" water-type heater bolted to the firewall, with a switch mounted UNDER the dash. Yeah..I know..I SHOULD have set it up so the "factory" provision for lighting indicators built into the dash works with the under-dash heater switch...!

Yes, some modern "big rig" diesels do have radiator shutters, and for good reason - diesels, being more efficient than gas motors, turn a greater proportion of the energy in fuel into mechanical energy, with less lost as heat. Even with modern "pellet" type thermostats, the air-flow coming in thru the radiator opening on big diesels has to be cut off on very cold days, for a number of reasons not relevant to our discussion regarding Packard cars.

Bottom line - my experience with Packard cooling systems....if you can get ANY Packard product to warm up quickly with only a Pines system to restrict the air flowing thru the radiator, you've got one badly maintained Packard!

OK.
Dash switches are part number PA - 239704
Same for both Heater and Defroster, both rheostatic switches.
The KNOB is reproduced via The Packard Library, not via Jerry Vinarcyk. The KNOB is the same as the '37 radio knobs. What is NOT reproduced is the chrome collar behind the knob, which is the same as found behind the 37 115/120 ashtray knob. Underdash switches, while common, are not correct for this heater in this application.
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wow - would love to have a pair of those switches !