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Packard Bikes
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Posted on: 2/2 4:36:13
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Re: Packard Bikes
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And there is a 1941 on the same website http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle172 Notice how the fender braces have a gentle curve to match the curves in the frame.

The one below in maroon is mine and is a 1941 built by Cleveland Welding Company.

Leeedy should be here shortly as he is the bicycle expert - had an article in the PAC magazine a little bit ago. don't have it at my finger tips.

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Posted on: 2/2 8:47:53
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1941 Model 160 Convertible Sedan
1941 Model 120 Business Coupe

My biggest fear is that when I die, my wife will sell all my "toys" at the price I told her I paid for them.
Ain't no such thing as a lonely widow that inherited a barn full of old cars
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Re: Packard Bikes
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2009/1/24 9:59
From Davis, CA
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Ahhh. Packard bicycles again. I keep trying to set the record straight on these bicycles... and the record keeps going astray no matter what I do or say or write. The Nostalgic Net bicycle site linked here unfortunately does not tell you, but the information they post regarding Packard bicycles came from me. I provided it to Dave, who runs the site.

As for the Packard Bicycles Complete History that I wrote... this 14-page history was published in 2013 in The Packard Cormorant magazine, issue #151, Second Quarter 2013. This extensive article covers all Packard bicycles for all years and tells the factual history of these bicycles. It is the first history of Packard bicycles and the only accurate one. This article tells you how to identify these bicycles, who made them and when they were made. It also shows you the headbadges used. And yes, it also clearly states that Packard-branded bicycles had zero connection with Packard Motor Car Company and were NOT used in sales of Packard automobiles–which is a persistent myth often repeated by the uninformed.

Unfortunately, some site or article posts a photo of a Packard bicycle and labels it a certain year (such as 1938) and immediately afterward, every Packard bicycle that pops up has "1938" mentioned with it. This stuff is just not based on facts, just gossip and guessing.

As for the Cleveland Welding Company (CWC) I have EVERY catalogue from beginning to end and I knew members of the family behind the company. I have the production records from the company as well. I started collecting these catalogues in the 1950s and I was first on the planet to collect and restore these bicycles.

Roger's bicycle has a paint job like 1941, but the frame and cranks are absolutely, positively very postwar (I can tell you what year you have if you photograph the serial frame number and stampings on the rear hub). A real 1941 frame would have been slightly different, although very similar in appearance. And the seat is a modern replica made by Persons-Majestic, but the original saddle would have been either Mesinger or Troxel. And the curved fender braces were a feature that existed on certain CWC bicycles for over a decade. It is a myth (a strong one, but myth anyway) that this is a prewar design feature. You will also note the bicycle claimed to be "1939-41" on the nostalgic net site does NOT have chromed fender braces but rather cad-plated as originals were. AND you will note that the craigslist Packard bicycle pictured has straight fender braces, not curved... and it is indeed a prewar CWC bicycle–with proper sprocket and cranks for this model. A 1941 "B" model which is what Roger's bicycle most closely resembles would have had a different frame, different rear carrier and rear stand, different saddle, different chain guard, different crank and sprocket, and different pedals. The headlight installed here appears to be a hybrid with a Delta-based body. Originals had a different body and different bezel.

I would suggest anyone interested in Packard bicycles and their history might want to pick up the back issue of The Packard Cormorant magazine #151 from The Packard Club.https://www.packardclub.org

I am attaching a photo of my 1941 Schwinn-Built Packard Autocycle Deluxe under restoration. I am also attaching headbadges from various Packard-branded bicycles made by different manufacturers.I have over 80,000 original American-made bicycle catalogues, books and photos. Otherwise I would be happy to identify any Packard bicycle.

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Posted on: 2/2 11:32:30
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Re: Packard Bikes
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Further information for 1941 Cleveland Welding Company (CWC) including Packard bicycles. Normally I would never post this kind of detail on the internet (in the world of the internet and the old bicycle hobby these things usually get pirated –often accidentally-on-purpose-and then made to appear as if they were sourced elsewhere...then later nobody knows where they came from). But from company records I saved, here are the first page of factory specifications for 1941 CWC series "Model B" bicycles, which would cover 1941 Packard bicycles made by CWC. Also to show I'm not merely expressing opinion or guessing out of the air–and I did not get this information from a DIY web site or gossip forum...

• Regarding the headlight for Roger's Packard bicycle... You will see a notation in the CWC factory specs of "N.E. forklite"...I will translate this. It means "Northeast Tool & Die headlight mounted on the front fork bracket." It would appear that Roger's Packard as pictured has a headlight body made by Delta Electric... with a bezel adapted from something else. The Northeast Tool & Die (normally abbreviated "NTD") headlight was more egg-shaped.

• Regarding the 1941 CWC saddle... Some factory illustrations show what appears to be a Mesinger brand saddle, however, the factory specs list only Troxel. CWC was located in those days in Cleveland, Ohio. Troxel was located in Elyria, Ohio. The two companies had a very good relationship in addition to close proximity. Persons-Majestic replica saddles (as installed on Roger's bicycle) have been plentiful since the 1980s when they were made, but they are still replicas and were never used as original equipment here. I ought to know about these saddles since I am the one who originally suggested to Charlie Persons that he make them! I even stayed at his house. By the way, Persons-Majestic is the company that made such Packard automobile items as stone guards for Packard radiators in the 1920s-1930s. They also made some of the crystal radiator cap ornaments that people TODAY think are all "Lalique" ornaments (some of them are NOT). And it was Persons-Majestic that dreamed up lighting these ornaments with an electric bulb.

Of course I also have the 1941 Cleveland Welding Company dealer catalogue in full color and the consumer information. I have the largest collection of this stuff in the world.

The fallacy of do-it-yourself (DIY) bicycle history–especially when it comes to Packard bicycles is that too many people believe what they see on the internet and in magazines. And on "picker" shows on TV. Apparently most people are somehow convinced this is not serious history, but something that is developed out of communal guessing and gossip and DIY web sites. True expertise cannot be recognized if one believes that the facts and history are only derived by a commune guessing and comparing notes on gossip forums. But it isn't. There IS serious history that exists–even if most people don't know it or refuse to acknowledge it.

Anyway, for what it is worth, here is an exact original page from 1941 CWC bicycle factory specifications–and I can pretty much assure you, you won't find another. Oh, and "Roadmaster" was the house brand name for bicycles made by Cleveland Welding Company and later by CWC/AMF ...


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Posted on: 2/3 4:42:34
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Re: Packard Bikes
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According to Drusilla Carter, who handles The Packard Cormorant magazine back issues for The Packard Club, there are currently 2, possibly 3 issues left of #151 from 2013. And that's it. Finito. This is the glossy magazine issue with the complete history of Packard bicycles.

The price for these back issues is the magnificent bargain of $8 each to club members (the fee goes completely to the club). If you misplaced your issue or are not a club member, here is a great reason to become one and the way to order.

Drusilla's address for ordering The Packard Cormorant magazines is as follows:

The Packard Cormorant back issues
c/o Drusilla Carter
13 Falknor Dr.
Manchester, CT 06040

Posted on: 2/12 14:46:59
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Re: Packard Bikes
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In 2013, someone wrote to Big Kev on this site requesting information on a Packard bicycle. (you can go back and look it up). At that time I responded as to what the bicycle actually was. Then? Crickets.

In 2018 an auction was held in San Francisco. A Packard bicycle that appeared to be identical to the one from 2013 was auctioned in a prestigious-looking extravaganza. The Packard bicycle was claimed to be "meticulously restored"...it wasn't. It was merely "fixed up" with miscellaneous parts from numerous years and brands...but not restored–which means to "return to original." Apparently this Packard bicycle brought in over $2800. Now here is what somebody got for their dough:

As I originally pointed out in 2013 and will do so here again...

• The Packard bicycle in question was claimed to be from the 1920s. MAYBE.

• The handlebar stem was claimed in numerous hoopla descriptions over several years before and during the auction to be aluminum (it was) and somehow related to a Packard Cormorant ornament (it wasn't). Nor was the the stem from the 1920s. Nor was it original to this bicycle. The aluminum bicycle handlebar stem in question was made in the 1950s–no chance from the 1920s. This stem came from a company in Detroit, Michigan located on Gratiot Avenue. I had been there many times in my youth and bought several of these and they were kept in my collection until 2002 when that collection ..."largely disappeared" along with my 1956 Packard Caribbean convertible. You don't need to take my word for it about the age and source of the stem. This was an aftermarket part almost never found on the west coast. But I had several of them. If you look back and research, you can find advertisements for these stems in 1950s bicycle trade journals. It is impossible to be from the 1920s nor could it possibly be original equipment on the bicycle in question. Bicycles from the 1920s era certainly did not have aluminum gooseneck handlebar stems–certainly not aftermarket accessory ones from the 1950s. And finding this aftermarket Detroit-made stem on the west coast would not be easy at all.

• The seat on this "1920s" bicycle is from the 1980s made by Persons Company and it is a replica of a seat made in the 1950s. We mentioned these replica Persons saddles in an earlier posting. A 1920s boy's bicycle saddle would have had far longer and older-looking springs. The saddle installed here is just as wrong for a 1920s bicycle as tail fins would be on a 1920s car!

• The front sprocket chain wheel is from a 1950s J.C. Higgins (Sears) girl's bicycle or a Murray-Ohio-built girl's bicycle of the 1950s. A boy's model of the same (again from the 1950s) would have had 3 rows of slots, not 2. Either way, this is not an original component to this bicycle and is decades newer.

• The rear sprocket (and thus the coaster brake hub) with the series of round holes in it (look at the photos) most likely came from the same girl's 1950s J.C. Higgins bicycle (the hub is a Higgins/Musselman unit). VERY easy to identify as a Packard is from a Ford.

• The front fork, sprocket, 1960s-70s handlebars all appear to be chrome. Any bicycle prior to 1928 would have had nickel... and certainly not the type of handlebar design as equipped. Even if we are generous and allow it to be 1928, only certain brands/models of bicycles at that point and for years later where equipped with chrome components. This was not one of them.

• There are other issues that prevent a "meticulous restoration"–not the least of which are too-large modern cad-plated screws attaching a nickle-plated headbadge. And those pedals and grips!

Does it matter that these Packard bicycles often turn up and draw a lot of attention? Of course. But it also matters that the history that goes with these bicycle is accurate... just like it ought to be for Packard automobiles. And the bicycles deserve to be restored accurately and to be identified accurately.

But everyone can go home happy when nobody knows what they are seeing–even with their eyes wide open. Or wide shut.

Posted on: 2/26 15:13:44
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Re: Packard Bikes
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Leon,

The thread you referred to.

Posted on: 2/26 15:44:01
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Re: Packard Bikes
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From Davis, CA
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Quote:

Ozstatman wrote:
Leon,

The thread you referred to.


Yes... this appears to be the same Packard bicycle auctioned in December of 2018 to great fanfare. It was originally distributed when new to dealers via Bean Son Company of San Francisco (discussed in the 2013 Packard Cormorant Magazine #151 Packard Bicycle History article). I guess the Packard bicycle in question returned home to be sold once again.

Despite my half-century of expertise and huge archive of original literature, apparently my identification of 2013 was completely ignored ... as they often are when a seller or owner has their mind made up. Often the response is, "But... Vintar Peequar told me it's a rare 1842 model and they only made 2!" OR "... Arkwar Farkwar said on the internet that it's a 1910 thanja-flangit model and they got a picture of one just like it posted in a gossip forum"! Or "... but I saw it on a picker show on TV and they said it's worth a million-jillion dollars and this model was only made by Schwinn on a July 4th in a snowstorm when they closed the plant and the janitors built it in the basement...but you can buy mine for...!" And so it goes.

Perhaps someday the history and facts of these bicycles will be taken seriously. Until then, we can only hope for the best as wild tales about Packard bicycles continue and erroneous Packard neon fantasies (the other history that refuses to be factual–no matter how many times I correct it) go on and on and on. It is what it is...

Posted on: 2/27 8:59:39
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Re: Packard Bikes
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2009/1/24 9:59
From Davis, CA
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The original inquiry to Big Kev in 2013 stated s follows:

"A gentleman contacted me with this bike and is looking for any info on if it was perhaps a promotional give away or contest item that PMCC may have been a part of in the late 30s early 40s? Being it was made in San Francisco, perhaps a E.C. Anthony dealer item?

He is liquidating his bicycle collection, and in his many years, no one has been able to every find another one of these, or tell him anything about it.

Info from gentleman:

"It was built by The Bean & Son Company of San Francisco, CA to follow the design of the Packard automobile with the goose neck handle bar stem being made from aluminum (precious metal at the time) and to have the lines of the cormorant feathers at it's sides like the hood ornament of the Packard automobile. "


"No one has been able to find another one of these or tell him anything about it"... Not true. I've had dozens. And all the fellow had to do was to ask the right source. As it turned out in response to the 2013 posting someone did indeed tell all about it. But to no avail.

The frame in question was made over several years and by more than one company. The frame design, contrary to the statement, had absolutely ZERO to do with Packard automobile design. This particular frame was made in New York, not San Francisco. The Company was "Bean Son" not "Bean & Son." Bean Son did not BUILD Packard bicycles, they merely wholesaled and distributed bicycles to dealers ANY of whom could choose from a selection of numerous names of which to badge the bicycles they sold. One of those names during one period was "Packard."

The exact same "Packard" bicycle was also sold in Philadelphia with another W-D name on the headbadge... which goes to show there was no official tie of the bicycle itself to the West Coast. It just depended on the W-D that was handling it. The only difference with the one distributed out of Philadelphia is that it said "PHILADELPHIA" instead of "San Francisco" on the bottom of the headbadge and no mention of Bean Son Company.

Long story short... THIS "Packard bicycle" (1st and 3rd image below) ...was really this (2nd image below–shown as it actually would have appeared when new–or if "meticulously restored" BTW... frames could be ordered in "tall" ..."normal" or "short" sizes, thus altering the length of the seatpost frame tube and therefore slightly tilting the rest of the frame as per. The catalogue example I show below is a "tall" version... the auction bicycle is a "normal" size). The cute little reflector on the rear fender of both the 2013 inquiry and 2018 auction bicycle is from a postwar Schwinn bicycle.

Finally, the absolute oldest the rear hub could possibly be is very late 1930s (at the absolute earliest), making it impossible for a bicycle from the "1920s" as the bicycle was claimed to be. The hub cannot possibly be original to the "meticulously restored" bicycle, any more than a 1956 374 cid V8 Caribbean engine belongs in a 1934 Packard automobile. By the way, the catalogue example we show you below was marketed 1916-1917... and the sample we show is out of the original catalogue–not from the internet or a DIY site or gossip forum.

And rumor has it there is yet another "Packard bicycle" now on the loose. This one is claimed to be... another "1941"... are you surprised that it also has 1950s GIRL'S J.C. Higgins Sears chain sprocket and hub? and ill-fitting 1950s J.C. Higgins fenders (somebody parted out a lot of GIRL'S Higgins bicycles)? But a frame from a different maker and different time? And a headbadge and fork from a 3rd maker? In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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jpg  So-CalledPackardBicycle2.jpg (287.64 KB)
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Posted on: 3/6 12:05:39
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Re: Packard Bikes
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For anyone who asked about the "Packard Philadelphia" bicycles headbadge similar to the "Packard San Francisco" headbadge, here is a Philadelphia version.

This one has had all paint and plating polished off and the lower mounting hole has been torn open. It is also a few years newer than the Bean Son San Francisco version, thus slightly different design.

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jpg  PackardPHILLYbadgeCR2.jpg (90.59 KB)
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Posted on: 3/31 19:06:48
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