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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Home away from home
Joined:
2013/12/21 11:14
From Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 214
Be sure to 'have a go' at setting the timing as close as possible. One way is to park the engine at 6 deg BTDC and place a piece of cellophane between the points. Rotate the distributor until there is light drag on the cellophane. You can also use a light to let you know when the circuit 'opens'.

I think the low compression will place more emphasis on the timing . . . I think!

Remember you did have the distributor removed, or close to being removed.

dp

Posted on: 6/29 20:18:59
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2019/1/19 9:00
From Lebanon, Oregon
Posts: 13
Hello Dave,

No luck.....

I double checked the firing order and it is good.

I do get spark while cranking. All plugs light up.

I am getting good vacuum pull when I put my hand over the carb. while the engine is cranking.

I filled the carburetor bowl with gas and even pour some down the choke opening.

at TDC where I get the engine where #1 is on the compression stroke I notice the crank and cam "O" do not line up, but you said that is should not matter. At TDC, or close to it, the distributor rotor is pointing to #1 terminal.

I have seen gas getting to the cylinders. I took all the plugs out to spin the engine to see if I was getting a strong spark.
Could all of my hydraulic lifters collapsed? Do I need to take this cylinder head off again?

I could pull off the tappet cover and crank the engine around to see when both #1 intake and exhaust tappets can be spun. This will let me also know if at least half of them are working or not.

Arg!

Tim

Posted on: 6/30 10:53:26
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
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2013/12/21 11:14
From Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 214
No1Packardman

Considering what maintenance you’ve just finished on the engine I agree that the lifters have likely bled down. Every time the engine was ‘rolled-over’ to confirm the alignment of the camshaft timing marks there was pressure applied by the valve springs. At low rotational speed there would be plenty of time for the oil to escape, plus the likelihood of any oil pressure to refill the lifter would be slim to none.

If your engine is not starting because of the hydraulic lifters that would be new one on me. Quite frankly I’ve never heard of that cause and effect path. The ‘vacuum pull’ you talked about is a strong indication that the engine is fulfilling its role as an air pump, so the intake valves must be opening.

Just how long has the engine been dormant? It sounds to me you have spark and the timing is close. The hand choking result is a good indicator that the air requirement has been met. Now the gas, I’ve seen fuel sitting on the portion of the intake manifold where the heat riser is located on a cold engine that didn’t start, that is, a lot of gas presented to the intake manifold, but not all made the turn toward the valves. Tim would you categorize the fuel as ‘fresh’?

One more point. Are you attempting an engine start with the timing cover, and damper removed ? Just asking . . . limit the run time in that configuration.

dp

Posted on: 6/30 14:38:17
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Not too shy to talk
Joined:
2019/1/19 9:00
From Lebanon, Oregon
Posts: 13
Again Dave thank you for helping me. To answer your questions:
I have confirmed that gas is getting to the cylinders. Today I took all the plugs out and saw some where soaked with gas. I would say the gas is fresh. Here in Oregon I only use non-ethanol and it is not very old. It doesn't have a turpentine smell at all.

The car was sitting my garage several months and I tried to start it in November. It would not start so after some troubleshooting, I found the fuel pump had gone bad. I ordered a new one from Max Merritt, cleaned all the lines, drained and flushed the tank and she fired right up.
However, that is when I noticed the back of the cylinder head was cracked. So I drover her to my 60x50 workshop, (barn conversion) to begin the teardown. This was in early February. So with all of this Covid-19 insanity, I was unable to get the head back from the machine shop for 3 1/2 months. "Commercial" work to precedence.

To answer your question...yes I am trying to start the engine without the timing cover on and damper removed, only so that I am not wasting time with assembly and disassembly and of course, as soon as it would fire up I would shut her down and clean up all the oil. That is another thing. With all the cranking, I see the oil pump doing its job by pumping some out to the timing chain.

One other thing, I did check the dwell and point gap. there were 27 degrees and .017 as the manual requires.

What should I do now? Should I inspect the tappets and locate the compression stroke for #1 cylinder?

Tim

Posted on: 6/30 15:11:07
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Forum Ambassador
Joined:
2007/3/14 16:01
From New Jersey
Posts: 16126
Even if those lifters have completely bled down, there is still enough range of motion to operate the valves so that, in and of itself, would not be a reason for a failure to start.

Posted on: 6/30 15:13:28
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Home away from home
Joined:
2013/12/21 11:14
From Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 214
No1Packardman

So last November it ran after a fuel pump change, and then disassembled to repair the head. Recently the cam chain was replaced, and it won’t start. Anything else changed/repaired? One other thing you quoted a dwell measurement, isn’t that a measurement while the engine is running, was that from last November? Right now is the basic ignition timing correct?

Unless you’ve already confirmed the cam timing using the shop manual procedure I think I would do that next, but with lifters that have bled-down I’m not sure whether you can get the published results.

I know it’s a crutch. But if it were mine I would prime the engine with a product marketed under the name ‘Starter Fluid’ . . . for an engine, not a charcoal barbeque.

War story from my past:
Some 50 years ago I was starting an iron head Sportster, with tons of compression, but an equal amount of cam shafts duration and overlap. Over the winter the engine was completely disassembled, and, considering it was a magneto equipped kick start engine, I was concerned that the first start might be difficult. The iron head was not known as one easy to start. With a soda straw through the carb I put a few inches of lacquer thinner in each inlet port. After two slow kicks, without the benefit of ignition, to distribute the thinner, I went for broke on the third kick. It started first time. I attributed the ease of start on the use of a starting fluid that was considerably more volatile than gasoline.

I think if you use a prudent amount of commercially available starter fluid you won’t do any damage to the engine. The hazards are; too much fluid is not recommended, and the possibility of a ‘back fire’ is elevated. Proceed with care and don’t look down the throat of the carburetor. Have your fire extinguisher at the ready. A squirt or two while the engine is cranking should get it to fire, and switch over to gasoline from the carburetor.

Comments from other forum users are solicited.

dp

Posted on: 6/30 17:41:39
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Home away from home
Joined:
2014/7/15 11:30
From Terrebonne, OR
Posts: 1944
Quote:
Even if those lifters have completely bled down, there is still enough range of motion to operate the valves so that, in and of itself, would not be a reason for a failure to start.


Dave is right. My 1954 Patrician sat for close to 40 years and recently started right up. There was a little lifter noise for the first few seconds so clearly they had bled down, but it very quickly disappeared.

Posted on: 7/1 9:51:19
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Home away from home
Joined:
2008/3/21 18:20
Posts: 2258
Just posted a video on installing a dist. in a straight eight Packard. https://youtu.be/XiY11rwjQ6A

Posted on: 7/1 15:23:53
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Home away from home
Joined:
2013/12/21 11:14
From Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 214
Ross, that’s quite an informative video. I did notice the machine screw that ‘pinches’ the distributor is quite a bit easier to reach when the body is in the shed.

With respect to No1Packardman’s problem. If the basic ignition timing was set the last time the engine ran with the suspect timing chain, then after the chain was changed the timing would be advanced . . . I was going to say significantly advanced, but I don’t know how much the chain had stretched. If you don’t start all-over like shown in your video the timing will be incorrect.

Maybe in the next video you can impart wisdom on the distributor’s ‘octane’ adjustment, a feature that went away when the quality of fuel became more uniform.

dp

Posted on: 7/1 17:16:34
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Re: Timing Chain wear allowance
Home away from home
Joined:
2016/3/13 15:24
From Coalmont, B.C., Canada
Posts: 918
Hi No1Packardman,

I have been following this thread, post-by-post and have been waiting for your eureka moment, and confirmation that the engine does indeed run. Sorry it is being such a stubborn issue. The gentlemen giving you advice are superior mechanics and diagnostic specialists, so I wouldn't even purport to be able to have their expertise, but one thing I did want to ask, is are you using the same head gasket throughout? You mention the bad head and water ingress into the engine, etc., and I wonder if a cylinder trying to compress water could have damaged the gasket? I only ask this because I spent years on a stalling problem, that eventually turned out to be, among some other issues, a bad head gasket. You have spark and if your timing is even close, you should at least get a sputter or some sign of a fire if you are adding a bit of gas to the carb when you are turning it over. Sounds like quite the mystery; good luck with finding the cure. Chris.

Posted on: 7/1 19:28:11
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