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full flow oil filter
Quite a regular
Joined:
2014/8/4 22:30
From Phoenix, AZ.
Posts: 29
Hello Gentlemen
How do I know if the oil filter on my 1953 Patrician is full flow, or not. If not is it possible to make it full flow? or is that impossible. Thanks for any info. Charlie

Posted on: 2016/10/10 20:29
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Re: full flow oil filter
Home away from home
Joined:
2016/6/28 13:05
From Boonton NJ
Posts: 849
It is not full flow. The real question is does it need to be full flow or is it worthwhile converting to full flow.

Packard engines such as yours weak points are not the bearings, if the oil is changed regularly they can go 100,000 miles on the original bearings. In my opinion there is little if any benefit especially with the vast improvements in oils in the past 60+ years.

Valve and valve seat life is a problem, also the block cracking from cylinder to valve seat.

Posted on: 2016/10/10 21:19
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Re: full flow oil filter
Just can't stay away
Joined:
2012/5/8 1:49
From Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 97
EDIT: It's most likely bypass, which is what Packard did on all of the post-war straight-eights. All the oil gets filtered (eventually), but it dumps back to the pan. You could conceivably make a full-flow filter by re-routing lines, but I don't know why you would want to - you'd run the risk of starving the bearings and valves of oil if the cartridge clogs, and the max oil pressure is in the 40 psi range, so I'd be uncomfortable with dropping that pressure from the pump down any more than it already is by inserting a full-flow filter in between.

I recently did a used oil analysis on my '52 Patrician and they found the oil was clean and in good condition after 1500 miles, so you're probably fine.

Posted on: 2016/10/11 1:16
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-DrewLA


1952 Packard Patrician 400
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Re: full flow oil filter
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2007/3/14 16:01
From New Jersey
Posts: 16208
It's most likely bypass, which is what Packard did on all of the straight-eights

Not quite a correct statement. Just so some future reader isn't mislead, the prewar senior straight eights (320 and 385 engines) from 1934 thru 1939 were all full flow oil filtration.

Posted on: 2016/10/11 4:33
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Re: full flow oil filter
Just can't stay away
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2012/5/8 1:49
From Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 97
I stand corrected. Thanks. I've edited the post so as not to mislead.

Posted on: 2016/10/11 9:00
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-DrewLA


1952 Packard Patrician 400
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Re: full flow oil filter
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Joined:
2009/7/13 14:31
From Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 386
Fred Kanter and the other long experienced souls above give good advice. Fred and Dan Kanter were both Lehigh University engineering majors, as was James Ward Packard, where the first Packard is still on exhibit, so all the more know what they're talking about, having been involved with these cars before many of these forums' visitors had graduated to tricycles.

But the above question prompts me to post again the below, for what it's worth, as few here gathered bother to do a simple search on a topic before posting their questions.

Most Packards, if they have an oil filter, have a bypass, other than the aforementioned 1934-39 senior eights and 1935-39 Twelve, a rarity shared with the 1933-on Pierce-Arrows, which introduced hydraulic valve lifters, and 1931-33 Auburn Twelve ( the latter probably the best buy in the history of the car biz for a number of off topic reasons for those able to see past their own hood ornaments). So i thought the below interesting:

Expanding a bit on the above discussion of bypass vs. full flow filtration, here's an interesting letter in the 2006, No.5 Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Newsletter by Al Light, Williamsport, PA, which is, coincidentally, where Lycoming, builder of all A-C-D engines, is still based:

"I really enjoyed the editor's comments on the club website about the real value of having an oil filter.

In the early 1950s while at Ford Engineering I was fortunate to hear an argument of "Full Flow" vs. "Partial Flow" oil filtration. The pro "Full Flow" people seemed to be more interested in the positive sales pitch that this system provided while the "Partial Flow" people seemed to
have a more solid engineering approach. The chief engineer from Fram Corporation stated the big difference was the allowable filter pressure drop. The larger the pressure drop, the finer and more material will be caught. With the full flow system you are restricted to approximately 10 pounds per inch drop across the element, and also require a bypass valve that will open when this pressure drop is exceeded. This of course is to protect the engine from oil starvation in the event of a plugged filter. With the partial flow, or sometimes called bypass system, the pressure drop is full engine oil pressure since
the oil discharges from the filter directly into the oil pan and not under any pressure. The system is automatically
bypassed if the filter plugs. It was also noted that a denser filter element is used on the partial flow system.

The Fram engineer summed up his thought by stating the answer to the argument was obtained by considering the following question: "Is it better to filter all of the dirt from part of the oil or to filter part of the dirt from all of the oil?"

He also stated that with the full flow system the bypass valve may open under cold starts and sometimes opens at high engine RPM when the allowable pressure drop may be exceeded. This results in no filtration under these conditions. His other comment was that the biggest advantage to full flow was to catch the machining chips, etc. in new engines. Fram's final approach was to propose the use of a combination system that did both full and partial filtering. I'm sure that this would have increased their filter business. I am not aware of any such system ever being used."


I can only add that an auld aircraft/auto mechanic/machinist/pilot and blown '37 Cord 812-owning friend said they were taught in tech school that a bypass filter will eventually filter all your engine's oil after a drive of 50 or so miles.

Another friend with '59 and '63 Ferraris showed me they left Modena with both full and bypass filters, as do some more recent trucks and heavy equipment, some of the latter coming only with bypass filtration.
Such equipment is likely to run hour after hour, shift after shift, so all the oil would easily be filtered.

As we've observed, for all the technological breakthroughs since Packard folded, much engineering is cost engineering,
but i don't know if this is strictly the case regarding bypass vs. full flow oil filtration with internal combustion engines.

Perhaps the above will be of some solace to those of us with Packards with the usual bypass filters. I leave further discussion to others, but would especially like to hear from engineers like Al Light, above, and members of the SAE. Meanwhile, if you want to do your engine a favor, ensure that the incoming air is clean and unobstructed, i.c. engines essentially air pumps and free breathing the key to power, life, economy.

Finally, never, ever start the engine unless you're going to drive the car at least 17-20 miles on the highway to prevent the formation of sludge, varnish, carbonic acid, the latter strong enough to etch concrete so you can imagine what it does to your bearings and rings. If you want to wash, wax, or work on your car outside, push it out the garage.

We still shake our heads at the alleged car buffs who start their engine and run it for a few minutes to show it off in the garage, then switch off the ignition and let the car sit for a month or two or longer.

Posted on: 2016/10/11 14:18
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Re: full flow oil filter
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2007/3/14 16:01
From New Jersey
Posts: 16208
The Al Light letter says it so well, worth saving. Thanks for finding and posting.

Posted on: 2016/10/11 16:00
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Re: full flow oil filter
Forum Ambassador
Joined:
2007/3/14 16:01
From New Jersey
Posts: 16208
The Al Light letter says it all so well, worth saving. Thanks for finding and posting.

Posted on: 2016/10/11 16:00
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Re: full flow oil filter
Quite a regular
Joined:
2014/8/4 22:30
From Phoenix, AZ.
Posts: 29
thank you to all!! I should have researched in the forum better before posting. but all your replies are helpful and welcomed, a lot of experts.
Charlie

Posted on: 2016/10/12 11:53
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Re: full flow oil filter
Home away from home
Joined:
2008/4/11 10:01
From Heilbronn Germany
Posts: 809
In the Porsche 356 and 912 world, the common opinion among all people I know is that one of the best things you can do for your engine is to convert from a bypass to a full flow filter. People have been doing it for at least 40 years. Those engines are higher revving, and don't have a floating oil pickup, I guess that makes a difference. It should be possible to convert or adapt an oil pump to include an oil filter and Bypass valve with a modern Spin on filter. I guess there is not much market for such a thing however.
Perhaps Hans knows about Aircraft Engines that were converted to full Flow oil filters. I Heard that was common, but those lycoming Engines are closer to Porsche than Packard Engines. Given that we all change our oil often enough, a full flow might not be a world of difference compred to if we were really daily driving.

Posted on: 2016/10/12 12:34
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1953 Clipper Delux Club Sedan, 1969 912, 1990 Miata, 2009 Ford S-Max.
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