Happy Easter and welcome to Packard Motor Car Information! If you're new here, please register for a free account.  
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
FAQ's
Main Menu
Recent Forum Topics
Who is Online
103 user(s) are online (61 user(s) are browsing Forums)

Members: 0
Guests: 103

more...
Helping out...
PackardInfo is a free resource for Packard Owners that is completely supported by user donations. If you can help out, that would be great!

Donate via PayPal
Video Content
Visit PackardInfo.com YouTube Playlist

Donate via PayPal




'39 tank/sender/gauge
#1
Home away from home
Home away from home

Packard Newbie
See User information
I continue to search for the reason why my '39 Six won't run (for 8 solid months) and am now in the process of removing the gas tank. The previous owner had a replacement tank fabricated in stainless steel. The pick-up tube on top of the tank seems too loose and I am afraid the fuel pump could be sucking air somewhere. Also, the gas gauge doesn't work and there are two wires coming from the sending unit, with one looking like it goes to the front of the vehicle with the main harness and the other is just sticking out the top of the tank, not connected to anything. My 'guess' is that it should be grounded, but don't want to short anything out or hurt anything. Can anybody give me some guidance here?? The gauge shows completely empty with the key off and completely full with it on, regardless of the tank level. Thanks in advance for any willing to read and share. (by the way, the issue with the car is it starts, idles, but as soon as one tries to drive it, it stalls. I have done new carb, points, condenser, cap, rotor, coil, wires, plugs, timed it, compression tested it, and it simply will not run. I have never dealt with anything so frustrating in my life!! Ready to throw a stick of dynamite underneath it, or sell it for a dollar!!!!!!) Does this ring any bells with anyone?!?!?!

Posted on: 2016/11/23 20:50
'If you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right!' Henry Ford.
1939 Packard Six, Model 1700
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#2
Forum Ambassador
Forum Ambassador

HH56
See User information
Does the car have an OD. If so, does the engine suddenly die when given gas. If you do have OD check that the ign cutout part of the kickdown circuit is OK and the switch is not grounding the coil prematurely. If it seems like it is running out of gas and you have a old rubber hose between the steel fuel line and the pump make sure the hose is good and not damaged or restricting fuel flow when the engine is calling for more. Collapsing under suction and the lining cracking and a piece moving and blocking flow are common in old hoses.

Not sure what kind of setup you have at the sender to have two wires. A stock sender would have a single terminal for a wire to the gauge and the ground would be provided by the tank metal grounding to the body and frame. If you have two wires I would expect one of the wires should be grounded but you will need to verify what you have.

Packard used a couple of manufacturers of gauges in 39 and I don't know the resistance range of either sender. I suspect it will be around 100 ohms empty and 0 full but will not swear to that. The gas gauge has two electromagnets which each pull against the needle. When in operation the sender causes the magnetic strength of one of the electromagnets to vary. When the sender resistance is high the magnet connected directly to the sender is weaker so the stronger one pulls the needle one direction. When resistance is low the connected magnet is stronger and pulls the needle the other direction. A half full tank and the magnets are balanced so the needle is in the middle.

In that type circuit the dash gauge as well as the sender needs to be grounded so verify that is the case.

Here is a photo from KM Lifestyle showing a typical sender that would be in the car. You might compare yours and see how much if any differences there might be. If you do need a sender and one of our vendors can't help, KM says they have some NOS and can also make brand new ones if needed.

Attach file:



jpg  (47.09 KB)
209_583650f0b2f12.jpg 958X1622 px

Posted on: 2016/11/23 21:31
Howard
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#3
Home away from home
Home away from home

fredkanter
See User information
It seems your problem is your car won't drive, run it does.
First question: Did any of the repair/replacement work you have done have any effect on running/driving?

Posted on: 2016/11/23 21:38
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#4
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

Arthur C, 1602-1191
See User information
One cents worth.
The fuel in full carburetor should be enough to go to say 30 mph, so:
1, the off idle transitional jets may be blocked.
Or perhaps an inlet manifold air leak.
2, ignition timing out, test by disconnecting vac retard.

Posted on: 2016/11/23 21:39
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#5
Just popping in
Just popping in

Mike D.
See User information
Can you rev up the engine when the car is stationary? You only mentioned that it would idle. If it does rev up, is the mechanical advance operational? Check with a timing light. Actually, this problem has to be dealt with systematically, and it is either fuel or spark...easy for me to say but it could be a diabolical issue.

Posted on: 2016/11/23 22:44
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#6
Home away from home
Home away from home

Packard Newbie
See User information
THANK YOU!!!! ...to those who replied. I have heard of this overdrive circuit relay. My car does not have an OD transmission, but DID at one time as there are a couple of wires on the drivers side firewall that are taped off and labeled 'OD'. How do I find/test for this relay???

Re the running problem, it has been pretty much the same since I got the car: it starts, idles, revs at idle, but as soon as I try and drive it anywhere, it is gutless, and as soon as I come up to a stop sign and put the clutch in, it just dies. If I try and restart it right away - no go. If I sit for 4 or 5 minutes, it will start and go, until the next stop sign!! There is also a kind of strange phenomenon, where it will be idling, albeit rather roughly, and it will suddenly snap out of it and run properly. This does not change the stalling issue though. I changed the carb, thinking this would solve a host of problem, and it really didn't change much at all. I have replaced the existing carb with a Carter WA-1, which is what is listed as the original carb for this car. It had a carb that the carb-exchange guys identified as a '56 Bel Air unit. Somebody asked if what I have done has changed anything and the answer to that is: it starts a bit better and idles a lot smoother (turns out 2 of the ignition wires were dead) but as far as the running/driving issue, nothing has changed. Also, the heat riser valve was frozen closed, and I got that freed up with some penetrating oil and as there was no spring left on it, I wired it open. I have stated repeatedly on this site that I am not a mechanic and that this is my first collectible car, but I have had 2 or 3 mechanics/ really good back yard guys look at it (and spent 1000's of $$'s doing so) and nobody can figure it out. The last guy had it in his shop for a month and he replaced the vacuum lines and checked the advance, installed all the ignition components I listed and timed it. I was so impressed with how it ran after he finished and thought he must have nailed it. I backed it out of his garage and started out in first gear; it stalled right away as soon as I tried to accelerate and would not start. I had to have it towed home, as the mechanic said he did not know what else to do.
To me, it seems like a gas issue, but if this OD circuit relay is killing the ignition, that could definitely be a major factor in getting it to run. There HAS to be an answer and I keep hoping I will come upon SOMETHING that will produce an 'AHA' moment and give me a Packard I can actually drive somewhere!!! Thanks again for the reads and answers.

Posted on: 2016/11/24 17:08
'If you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right!' Henry Ford.
1939 Packard Six, Model 1700
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#7
Home away from home
Home away from home

fredkanter
See User information
Guessing, throwing money at it and backyard mechanics have been unsuccessful. Time to Do it once and do it right.
Take the car to a real mechanic, one with some simple diagnostic tools like a fuel pressure gauge and ignition analyzer. Methodical analysis by a professional will find your problem, continuing on the same way you have MAY find the problem at great additional cost.

I find it hard to follow your descriptions, I thought it did not run, then I found it did not drive, but then there's accounts of getting to stop signs??

Cars without computers, especially old ones, are very simple

Posted on: 2016/11/24 19:50
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#8
Forum Ambassador
Forum Ambassador

HH56
See User information
If you no longer have the OD at the trans I doubt that any of the remaining electrical is causing the problem unless a wire is still present and has shorted. If it is the cause, the engine would die immediately when the connection was made instead of what I think you are describing with the word "gutless" as just the engine not having any power and then dying when you try to move the car.

To completely eliminate the electrical possibility look for a 3 terminal (maybe 4 with one terminal grounded) kickdown switch low on the firewall and mounted to a bracket which is at the end of the accelerator pedal. If you find one, verify if there is a wire between the coil terminal which is the terminal that also connects to the distributor and one of the two terminals on the end of the switch closest to the plunger. If there is such a wire disconnect one end and tape it off. That will prevent any chance the switch is actuating and shorting the coil.

You didn't mention if you have looked at or changed the rubber fuel hose. If it is old or original, modern gas or age can do a job on it. I personally had experience in a 54 with the hose collapsing internally and blocking fuel flow when the engine was commanded to go faster than an idle. The symptoms I had then sound a lot like what you are experiencing. A clogged fuel pump screen or an external filter can also cause similar symptoms. The older ceramic filters can look good, allow air to blow thru but can be filled with varnish and restrict the flow of fuel.

Just for grins here is the early and late production 39 OD circuit and notes on the parts which affect the coil.

Attach file:



jpg  (138.10 KB)
209_58379376731b0.jpg 1056X1314 px

Posted on: 2016/11/24 20:28
Howard
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#9
Just popping in
Just popping in

Mike D.
See User information
Based on what has been described it is difficult to understand what the cars behavior is. It sounds like there are multiple issues. One issue appears to be fuel starvation and the other one appears to be intermittent electrical. There are ways to ascertain this, but it has to be done logically and not in a shotgun approach. I think that owning a pre-computer car is an expensive proposition if you are not mechanically inclined, and finding people who can work on these vehicles is getting more difficult all the time. They are simple, as mentioned, but not well understood by many modern mechanics.

Posted on: 2016/11/24 21:24
 Top  Print 
 


Re: '39 tank/sender/gauge
#10
Home away from home
Home away from home

Ken_P
See User information
Over on the PAC website, there are some very methodical troubleshooting guides that will help you holistically troubleshoot your problem. Good luck!

Posted on: 2016/11/25 10:45
1937 120 1092 - Original survivor for driving and continued preservation.
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16514&forum=10

1937 115 1082 - Total basket case, partial restoration, sold Hershey 2015
https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?start=0&topic_id=6550&order=ASC&status=&mode=0
 Top  Print 
 








Search
Recent Photos
Photo of the Day
Recent Registry
Website Comments or Questions?? Click Here Copyright 2006-2024, PackardInfo.com All Rights Reserved