Re: More on the Facel-Packard . . .

Posted by su8overdrive On 2013/6/10 14:57:37

My aim was not to "disparage" the Duesenberg as much as to provide perspective, even as i've posted a few times to debunk Rolls-Royce, thinking it unfortunate so many Packardites are still, at this late date, cowed by such myth and hyperbole, tho' my effort likely a fool's errand.

Of course the Model J was impressive. That was 10th grade dropout, former car salesman, stock market marauder E. L. Cord's sole wish, and why it was given a fanciful 265 hp rating, solely to trump the perhaps also inflated claim of a very limited production Mercedes SSK as "most powerful car in the world." Human nature likes to imagine a single "best," in any field, to vaunt the perceived Olympian, the gee whiz in us all.

The Duesenberg J was ridiculously priced and for such sum should've been able to fly and triple as submarine.
For perspective, look at the specs of the 1926-27 nine-main, twin ohc Delage 1.5-liter Grand Prix engine, which has 62 roller and needle bearings.
Such a car scaled up would be impressive. That there were even in the Depression look at me Hollywood types and scions of industrial wealth willing to make such a statement doesn't discount Richard Hough's and others assessment that "other than ball-bearinged king pins and extreme quality throughout, there was nothing remarkable about the Model J's chassis."

Packard had ball-bearing king pins, but then so much of Packard's quality was unseen.

Much was made over the well finished, enameled components in the Model J's engine bay. Forgetting an era Rolls-Royce, either Phantom or Small HP, an Isotta-Fraschini, or next year's ('30) Cadillac V-16, look at a mint original or authentically restored higher end Massey-Ferguson tractor from those years. Few color photos survive, but such upper echelon farm equipment was the J's cosmetic equal, ferociously courting what money remained in those grim years.

Fred Duesenberg had wanted to build something closer in size to his earlier Model A or X. Think of the ohc 1929 Stutz or '31 Stutz DV32 (twin cam, four valves per cylinder)eights, every bit as sophisticated as the Model J, and for a fraction the price. But E. L. Cord owned the Duesenberg brother's company and name, and so Fred Duesenberg had his marching orders.

Of course any huge, glitzy car with a rorty exhaust will be impressive, as with the ancient fire truck you describe.
But if you're talking about refined automobile, another matter.

The Model J could've had a huskier front u-joint, better transmission, something Packard always got right. The long timing chains stretched at high rpm upsetting valve timing.

It's still a helluva a car. But for such a ludicrous price, it should've been. Maurice Hendry and others ascribe 105 mph as the real world top speed for most Model Js in road trim, 3.8, 4.0, 4.1 and 4.3:1 rear axles, the middle two being most common. This was 10mph faster than
a 1931-33 Chrysler Imperial, arguably better looking, also with, like Duesenberg and Stutz, hydraulic brakes, and like the Delage, Packard, Pierce-Arrow, nine main bearings.

That the Model J sought to get by with only five main bearings underscores the car was all about mass, flash, dash, not smoothness or even durability. The long crankshaft demanded a mercury-filled vibration dampener, something Packard never needed.

Wish i could recall his name, but there's a longtime Packard man, among others, who cleanly illustrated not just the competiveness on a quality basis---if not outright top speed-- even the superiority, of certain Packard speed models from the same era.

So what did the Model J owner get beyond the chimeral benefits of public perception for over quintuple the price of a Chrysler Imperial? 10 additional mph. Twin overhead cams. And gearboxes that flashed warning/refill lights for
battery water, motor oil, and the periodic chassis lube, the latter Packard and many others having, tho' the driver having to make the heroic effort of pulling a wee handle on the dash daily.

Another old friend (been fooling with old cars all my life, reading the usual books when i was a boy) owned a pair of Duesenbergs, tho' not concurrently, a convertible sedan and a Murphy Custom Beverly sedan both on the lwb. Yes, impressive, like the fire truck you mention. But that much more so than a lovelier, lower Chrysler Imperial?

But i'm bigger on cars than hero worshipping. As for the staggering amounts Model Js bring at auction, consider the ridiculous sums people willingly part with for '57 Chevies and matching numbers '60s bucket mill muscle cars.
Inflated money's hardly a concise barometer of intrinsic worth.

You want an era barouche to be impressed with, try the 1931 Marmon 16, which put out an honest 190-200 hp, each of which did two laps at the nearby Indy brickyard at 105 mph before delivery. My Delahaye, Bugatti, Hisso-owning late friend had one of these, said his wife could park it with ease.
A 1983 poll of SAE members included the Marmon 16, not the Duesenberg, among the 30 greatest automotive engines of all time.

Am sure to take some heat even here at Packard Central
for refusing to buy into the Duesenberg golly gee whiz, but
there you have it and this cleans me out.

Meanwhile, i've asked before but would love to hear any vetted technical insight, firsthand knowledge, SAE papers on the relative merits of the 384-ci Chrysler Imperial, Packard and Pierce-Arrow nine main straight eights, all sharing the identical bore/stroke.