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Board index » All Posts (1948Packard22nd)




Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#11
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Packard 1948
So I ordered an oil pan gasket and an oil pump cover gasket.

The plan is to remove the pump cover and turn the engine over and see if the gears are indeed moving. As suggested earlier on this forum I will also pump some oil down the oil port and make sure the gears are wet. The last time I used grease and oil but the suggestion about oil down the port sounds good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhb6rDR8xEw


QUESTION: Is the pivot of the Float-O Screen located below the oil level in the oil pan?

I ask because the pivot of the Float-O Screen seems kinda loose. I sent the video to Fred Bruner at Max Merritt and he said that it appears to be similar play as with a used replacement part he would sell me.

So there is some amount of air gap around the fitting and if this thing is supposed to float up and down then there has to be some kind of play in the design. If the pivot is above the oil level then it would always be sucking in air so I presume that the pivot would have to be below the oil level. Does anyone know for sure?

Posted on: 2021/5/18 16:07
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#12
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Packard 1948
>The gear on the pump also drives the distributor so if the distributor is turning, so is the pump.

A wise man once said "all generalities are false"

(sorry I just couldn't resist)

With both the original oil pump and the replacement pump we confirmed that the shear pin was intact so yes in this generality that is true...

: ) < ---- Cyber Joke Indicator Icon

In addition to the video, here is a picture of the pipe connection that connects the Float-O Screen assembly to the oil intake port. Not much that can go wrong here...

Attach file:



jpeg  Packard Pictures 20210515 Oil Pickup Tube .jpeg (2,553.58 KB)
84982_60a13550ea9e2.jpeg 4032X3024 px

Posted on: 2021/5/16 9:54
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#13
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Here is a video of the oil pickup tube.

https://youtu.be/Yhb6rDR8xEw

(sorry in advance but YouTube wants to show some strange "premier" of 1.30 minutes of nothing before the video starts)

Is this about the right amount of "slop" in the float-O screen and the stationary oil pickup tube? It seems a bit sloppy and if so I would think that it would suck in air before sucking in any oil...yes...no???

Posted on: 2021/5/15 23:22
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#14
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Packard 1948
I can say that I have not confirmed that the oil pump rotor (gears) turn when the crankshaft turns because that would involve removing the cover from the oil pump and I did not want to damage the paper thin gasket.

It seems that the replacement oil pan gasket is not the correct part so I need to order one from Max Merritt anyway so I will order an oil pump cover gasket and then watch the rotors turn as the engine cranks over with the starter motor.

What should I inspect on the inside of the crankcase since I have the oil pan off? The oil pickup pipe and the Float-O screen are removed.

The Service Instruction attached earlier in this post says "when you replace the screen make sure that the upper connection is tight, where the oil tube is fastened to the crankcase. This is particularly important in the case of the flanged connection in the Super Eight"

Is this a press fit?

Posted on: 2021/5/15 18:52
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#15
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Packard 1948
Hi everyone!!!

We are FINALLY back at it trying to troubleshoot the low oil pressure issue on my dads 1948 straight 8.

As a review...It seems that the engine has suddenly lost all oil pressure...like zero oil pressure.

The background is that a couple of years ago we had the engine rebuilt and it was running perfectly. One day my dad started up the car and about 1/2 block away the oil pressure dropped to zero.

The car is a Packard Engine Serial Number book calls the engine a "1948 22 Series" 327 CID, 145 HP, Super Eight L head, 5 bearing, solid lifters Casting number: 389803 11-17-48. It has a remote oil filter unit


To troubleshoot, we have removed all sparkplugs and when using the starter motor to spin the engine and performed the following steps:

-Verified oil level is at the max on the dip stick.

-Checked the electric oil pressure gauge and when the sender wire is grounded out the gauge will peg at max oil pressure...so it is not the oil pressure gauge.

-Replaced the oil pressure sender unit and still no oil pressure...so it is not the sender unit.

-Removed the oil sender unit and cranked the engine over and no oil is squirting out of the open hole...so the pump is not moving oil.

-A local Packard guy suggested that perhaps the oil pump pin has sheared off so my dad ordered a new pump and when the new pump arrived I removed the oil pump and stuck a wood dowel inside the impeller hole and tried to turn the drive gear and verified that the pin had not sheared...so it was not the old oil pump.

-Since he had a new pump already bought he wanted to use it so I squirted oil into the impeller holes and the shaft and reinstalled the replacement oil pump so the new pump is installed and there is not any oil squirting out of the hole.

-Removed the oil pan and the floating oil pickup tube and screen was still attached...HOWEVER...the tube connections are VERY loose.

How loose should these connections be? It almost seems that the loose connections would be a source of air infiltration into the engine oil but why did the car suddenly loose complete oil pressure...so much so that there is zero oil squirting out of the open oil pressure sender port???

So now we have the oil pan off...perhaps we should start from step one...but what would that firs step be???

THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND WELL WISHES!!!

Posted on: 2021/5/15 15:26
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#16
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As always... very grateful for the advice.

I will try the back flow to prime the oil pump first then if that doesn't work I will do the oil pan removal.

THANKS AGAIN

Posted on: 2020/10/7 19:32
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#17
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>You could in a few minutes remove the the oil sender union out of the block and crank a bit to see what happens.

Yes I remove the oil sender and had the open tee fitting block looking straight down the opening and crank the engine over and not even a dribble

With the oil level at completely full are you saying that the 12in oil pickup pipe would be covered in oil? I was considering overfilling the crankcase by 2 quarts to see if that would allow the oil pickup to suck oil

Posted on: 2020/10/6 19:04
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Re: Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#18
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HH56, Yes you were one of the experts I remember who was exceptionally helpful back in 2016 when I did all of the work on my dads car.

>As I recall there is a pin or cotter key that keeps the floating screen assy on the tube assy feeding into the pump intake. Perhaps that pin or cotter key loosened and screen assy fell off.

Does anyone have any pictures of this contraption?

The service manual is silent on the pickup assembly and has no pictures and I cannot find any reliable pictures on the Google.

So to understand this oil system it helps me to spell it all out so please correct me if I am wrong...

There is a "floating" oil pickup screen assembly (why does it float) and from there the oil is sucked up through the screen and flows to the oil pump.

The oil pump is externally mounted on the right side of the engine near the front and it has a drive gear that is driven off of a matching gear on the camshaft.

The oil pump drive gear serves two purposes...
-first it drives the oil pump impellers and
-second it has a male slot in the center of the gear that meshes with the female slot in the distributer drive shaft (this was the "union" that caused so many bad words to get uttered during the reassembly...fortunately I took a picture of the distributer rotor position before I removed the oil pump).

-Once the oil is sucked through the impellers in the externally mounted oil pump the oil is now essentially unfiltered and pressurized and it now flows past a spring loaded ball bearing type pressure relief valve.

-The pressure relief valve is non-adjustable and is preset from the factory with a certain tension on the spring. If the oil pressure is too high the pressure will force the ball bearing off of its seat and that excessively pressurized oil will be dumped back into the oil pan.

-Oil flow that meets the oil pressure requirements of the overpressure relief valve will be routed back into the engine where it will take one of two paths...

-The first oil path is the oil gallery that runs along the right side of the engine parallel to the oil pan mounting flange and this is the path that feeds all of the internal components of the engine other than the lifter gallery.

-The second oil path is straight through the block and out of the other side (left/driver side) of the block at the lower oil fitting port and here will be an externally mounted Tee fitting.

-The first leg of the Tee fitting will have installed the oil pressure sender unit.

-The second leg of the Tee fitting will be one of two designs depending on IF the engine has an externally mounted oil filter assembly.

-On engines NOT equipped with an externally mounted oil filter assembly there will be a small "U" shaped pipe that will direct the oil right back into the engine through the upper most oil fitting port on the engine and this feeds the lifter gallery.

-On engines that ARE equipped with an externally mounted oil filter assembly will have an external pipe that routes the oil to the top of the externally mounted oil filter assembly and the oil will circulate around the outside diameter of the paper filter element and then flow through the paper element toward the center and once in the center the oil will flow down through the second externally mounted oil pipe through the upper most oil fitting port on the engine and this feeds the lifter gallery.


Did I get this right???

So not all of the oil flow is filtered???

So just oil screen is the only thing that filters the engine oil going to the crank and camshaft bearings (YIKES)!!!

If this all is accurate then replacing the oil pump will have removed the oil pump, the oil pump gear drive, and the oil pressure relief valve from the equation.

Perhaps the Tee fitting to the oil sender is blocked by grit???

If I remove the lid from the oil filter and crank the engine with the starter motor and if the oil level in the filter increases then I can confirm the oil pump is working???

If the oil level in the filter does not increase then it is time to take off the oil pan...drats!!!

SORRY for the long stream of consciousness but is does help to understand the system.

Posted on: 2020/10/6 15:45
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Zero Oil Pressure 1948 Packard
#19
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Packard 1948
Greetings,

It has been a long time since I posted and that is because my dad's Packard has been running nicely these last years...until now...

It seems that the engine has suddenly lost all oil pressure...like zero oil pressure.

The background is that a couple of years ago we had the engine rebuilt and it was running perfectly. One day my dad started up the car and about 1/2 block away the oil pressure dropped to zero.

The car is a Packard Engine Serial Number book calls the engine a "1948 22 Series" 327 CID, 145 HP, Super Eight L head, 5 bearing, solid lifters Casting number: 389803 11-17-48. It has a remote oil filter unit that is plumbed like the attached picture (this could be the issue however we have not looked into it).


To troubleshoot, we have removed all sparkplugs and when using the starter motor to spin the engine and performed the following steps:

-Verified oil level is at the max on the dip stick.

-Checked the electric oil pressure gauge and when the sender wire is grounded out the gauge will peg at max oil pressure...so it is not the oil pressure gauge.

-Replaced the oil pressure sender unit and still no oil pressure...so it is not the sender unit.

-Removed the oil sender unit and cranked the engine over and no oil is squirting out of the open hole...so the pump is not moving oil.

-A local Packard guy suggested that perhaps the oil pump pin has sheared off so my dad ordered a new pump and when the new pump arrived I removed the oil pump and stuck a wood dowel inside the impeller hole and tried to turn the drive gear and verified that the pin had not sheared...so it is not the oil pump.

-Since he had a new pump already bought he wanted to use it so I squirted oil into the impeller holes and the shaft and reinstalled the replacement oil pump (wow that is a HORRIBLE JOB ...trying to get the pump gear meshed with the distributer slot and then getting the teeth to align to get the distributer rotor back to the same position...) so the new pump is installed and there is not any oil squirting out of the hole.

Today I will read about the remote oil filter assembly and also read about the oil pickup tube as perhaps that could have fallen off.)

Knowing that you all are the depository of all Packard knowledge out there I wanted to reach out to the experts and get your advice...any help would be greatly appreciated.

THANKS EVERYONE!!!

Attach file:



jpg  (193.98 KB)
84982_5f7cc33b41df2.jpg 1920X1080 px

Posted on: 2020/10/6 14:19
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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Voltage Regulator Settings
#20
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Packard 1948
Hello Cyber Packard Friends!!!

I hope you all had a Happy Christmas and/or are enjoying Hanukkah.

Over the holiday break I got to play around with my dad's 49 Packard. It is running really good after the engine and transmission rebuild last year. Man...I am here to tell you that that thing fired right up at 35F and ran super smooth and purrs like a kitten...smoothest running carbureted car I ever remember seeing.

Anyhoo, I was wondering if I could ask the collective about voltage reading during cold and warm charging and ask to see if my readings are in the ball park with what they should be. I know that the VR can be affected by cold/hot temperature so I ran the test at both hot and cold and low and high idle with headlights off/on. I know the VR is working because the ammeter needle swings right and flickers correctly however it looks like perhaps the current limiter relay may be cutting the charge off a bit earlier that I would like to see.

Since the engine fires right up there is very minimal drain on the battery by the starter motor.

Here were my digital volt readings:

Cold battery (not run for three days) before start: 6.49

Measurements with system cold (about 40F outside air temp) immediately after engine start:
Headlights OFF / Headlights ON
High Idle (choke on) 6.80 / 6.93
Low idle (choke off) 6.30 / 6.18

Measurements with system warmed up:
Headlights OFF / Headlights ON
High idle 6.68 / 6.55
Low idle 6.30 / 6.19

So yes the system is working however I thought it would be putting out a bit more voltage.

Do these look close?

THANKS VERY MUCH for your help!!!

Bill

Posted on: 2016/12/28 19:49
Bill,

Dedicated to keeping the man who owns one on the road!!!
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