Craig,

Quote:

Just the Packard VE would be nice to have. I think we might have some Chevy folks here who would have some figures for the BB, or I wouldn't be surprised if I can find some on Carnut.

I think this cries out for a comparison look-see. With Packard being maligned for the '55 V8's relatively minor "teething" problems, I wonder how the truly catastrophic failures of some of the original Chevy BB "W" motors escaped the kind of scrutiny often leveled at the Packard. It's the magic Bow Tie effect at work, I think.

mikec,

Good job. But ONLY 1/3 inch? That ain't so bad. I've heard of cases of an inch or more congealed glop down there. How about metal? Sounds like you didn't find much or any... which is very good.

As long as you're cleaning it up, one thing you could do before you change oil is to drizzle some MM into the carb throat while it's running (just idling) until it "chokes" out. Then let it sit overnight. Next day, start it, give it some gas and watch the clouds of fun stuff come out the tail pipe(s). After that you'll definitely need an oil change.

Might be good to tell your neighbors when you plan to start it, and tell them that it's just a one-time thing-- until your next old car needs an engine enema.

Thanks, Jack

How about if we pick a fairly apples-to-apples comparison from the period in question when Chevy might have been looking at adapting the Packard V8.

Say the 348 Chevy of 1958 vs the 352 Packard of 1955 (the "senior" engine).

&

The first generation 409 Chevy vs the 374 Packard of 1956, both with single carbs, and/or both with multiple carbs (3 deuces in the Chevy and 2 4bbl in the Packard.


Hey, we're back on topic!

Anybody have original Packard VE specs on the Packard?

Craig?

How about we do a side-by-side comparison of HP, Torque curves, VE, weight?

I guess the question becomes, would the Packard BB have been a good choice for Chevy in 1958.

Quote:

Lloyd,

That was our experience exactly. It was kind of the "magic 13" that by the time you got through a tank of gas after various starts, warmups, and driving speeds/conditions, that mileage number almost always came up.


Craig,

VE numbers for Packard V8's would be just great. Especially if you can compare them against Chevy BB. Very interesting. Volumetric Efficiency is really the overall "acid test" of a well designed engine of any displacement.

Thanks for offering. It would be a nice "spec" to add for the Packard V8 record.

Thanks for noting this, Jack, as I think a lot of folks might not know that the last great from-the-ground-up GM V8 big block was by Buick.

Yes, the good ol' thin-wall casting Buick. They had some horsepower to weight ratio! Probably one of the best ever non turbocharged. And the Stage II heads were some of the best breathing ever.

One good reason why Chevy put those fat b*stard 454's in cars: They were needed for Chevy trucks and what kind of economic sense would it make for Chevy to create a big "car" V8 from scratch.

A lot of people are very much into the last generation Buick V8s, even to the point where a new block casting has been designedt. Lots of talk on another forum about Buick's performance engines.

Also, it's pretty amazing how, except for all-out racing purposes, these "light" V8s could withstand street racing punishment and haul around a big Deuce and a Quarter full of people-- probably dragging a trailer--and not even seem to work hard. They had TORQUE.

Maybe it didn't make great revs but a lotta guys surprise a lotta people at the track with bone stock 430's and 455's. One testament to their strength is how many are still around. What a shame they didn't put them in the last generation rear wheel drive Rivieras, and settled instead for an Olds 307. Sad. I suppose it was emissions or "economy" pressures. But one not-too-well known secret is that the Buick big blocks with 4 barrel could easily get you up to 20 mpg cruising. Think of how efficient these engines really were, MUCH more than econo 4-cylinders that were getting 30 or so mpg in much lighter and more aerodynamic bodies.

But since this thread is on Packard V8s, I'm wondering how efficiently they operated. My dad was of the opinion that they were an impressive engine because they seemed to continually get more efficient the faster the car was driven, because at almost any speed (dad drove between 55 and 90 on the highway) they got right around 13 mpg in spite of the greater wind resistance. This was observed over a lot of miles in three different cars equipped with 352 cid engines. Two were 4-door Clipper Customs and one was a 400. The heavier 400 had milled heads, so even thought it was heavier, it might have gotten similar mileage because of the extra compression.

Anyway some thoughts to ponder. Anyone here think the Packard V8 could have been well-served by higher compression ratios? The 400 had much peppier acceleration with a hefty .125 shave. "Snap your neck off" as they say.

Hope you won't mind an on-topic quip:

One thing about Rolls Royce that is not a myth is that at one time they advertised the horsepower of their engines as "adequate."

As for the performance arguments, none of them are ever settled on paper... they're settled at the track. Even then, there's always another night at the track and a little extra edge for an engine that, say, likes to run in cooler ambient temperatures.

So, you can argue forever. But I agree that what comes out of the arguments is pretty entertaining and enlightening--if it doesn't get personal, sarcastic, or nasty. Pithy is fine.

BTW, here's something you can't argue with:

The Road Runner was a Warner Brothers cartoon character.

Walter Lanz did Woody Woodpecker.

So waddaya got to say to that, huh? Am I right or am I right?

Craig,

Thanks for your comment on the thread, and additional on-topic information--well-informed as usual. Good to see you posting here. Any news on the Panther? Your website and writeup was how I got to AACA, and from there to here.

Loyd,

Revving a 454 without a load was a recipe for disaster, too, even though they're distantly relatives of the 348/409 in the BB clan. I know how they blow from personal experience. I did it once to my dad's '74 pickup. And I didn't even rev it that much, just enough to keep it from dying every time you put it in gear. The carb was twitchy.

It also wasn't the first time that engine had a serious internal breakdown. After the second rebuild, it went up for sale and was replaced with a Buick 430, which raised the front end of the truck about 6 inches. The 454 was bought almost immediately be a fella that couldn't believe how lucky he was!

No offense intended, but I can hardly find words to describe how unimpressed I am with the Chevy BB. I think they have a loyal following more because of their flaws than in spite of them. Needing to defend them brings out the protest.

But again, the sheer audacity of putting that huge truck engine in various sizes of cars is something to marvel at. And others would point at the 430 in the truck and say the same thing. But at least the 430 didn't break down all the time.

BTW, since I haven't seen an answer to my previous OT question, the Corvette straight six was called the "Blue Flame."

This style is my favorite "bathtub" Packard. I hesitate to use that pejorative, because the rejection of the styling is, I think, a rush to judgment. I saw a beautifully restored sedan on the street the other evening, and under the lights alongside the "modern" cars it looked beautiful.

But, it's a matter of taste. The design DID win a number of awards-- but not from car people.

About that hole... I'll just add a couple of pure guesses:

1. There was another backup light installed like the one on the left.
2. Wherever that right bumper guard went, it could've taken something else with it... or left a neatly punched hole.

I lean toward #1.

Good to hear from Norwegian friends. You've got a lot of expatriates here in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I'm yust a quarter, myself.

Thanks for the mention of the 331 Caddy from 1949. It is one of my favorite trivia questions: Who built the original "small-block" GM V8? The Chevy "mouse" motor owed a lot to that design, and it was a technical marvel. One of the biggest differences that allowed the short-deck design was the nicely carved piston skirts that gave clearance for the crankshaft counterweights. A piston did not have to look like a coffee-can to work! Who'd a thunk?

At least that's one of the primary innovations of the 331 as I understand it.

I really, really hate to say this, but the '49 Caddy has some striking similarities to the same vintage Bentley. I can no longer locate the old Cars & Parts that did the comparison, or even who supposedly copied who. The article included diagrams, measurements, the works! It also included the info on how the notched piston contributed to the overall compactness of the 331.

Thanks for the picture of the Corvette straight six.

Remember what Chevy called it?

Quote:

Yes, John, and a lot of the time it's Chevy people who make cracks like that about Buick, Olds, etc. big-blocks. For a laugh some time look up some of the actual weights and even the supposed "small block" Chevy will be heavier than some of the competition's BB.

What Packard V8 says for the most part is true, these were Chevy Truck engines, designed at a time when Chevy was considering going all out with gasoline powered heavy trucks and even over-the-road tractor trailer rigs to compete with the diesel rigs.

Not only did they eventually give in to the other diesels, but GMC beat GM itself with the civilian version of the "Jimmy" 2-cycle. A real hairy monster.

Why did Chevrolet insist on dropping the BB in cars? Horsepower wars, I suppose. Get-em-up 409. But it sure did make for some nose-heavy rides,

V8's post also mentioned the only engine offered in the debut Corvette... first answer gets the prize... a chance to try to find anything amiss in Jack's writeup. It won't be easy. Good luck!

Jack, thanks for the verification of the Packard V8/Chevy BB rumor, and thanks to Turbo Eric for putting the bug in my ear leading to this thread.

Some more fun Packard trivia to perhaps expand upon if more info comes to light.