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Board index » All Posts (55PackardGuy)




Did Chevy consider Packard V8 BB Design?
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55PackardGuy
Apocryphal... or not? Detroit Urban Legend... I wonder.

Plans to morph Packard V8 into a Chevy BB circa 1958.

Over on the pre-war board was a post regarding a possibly true story that Chevrolet had more than a passing interest in the Packard "Big Block" design for their first BB engine. I thought I'd start a thread over here on the V8 board and present the question.

One possible scenario (speculation only): Given the rather odd-ball qualities of the Chevy 348 BB and other early "W" motors, perhaps Chevy was struggling to get out an all-new BB design to compete with their GM brethren, and "Studebaker Packard" could sure have used the money about that time.

If Chevy were to tool up for a version of the '56 Packard V8, massaged enough to look like a unique design, it would've taken them about two years of development to be ready for 1958, when Chevy introduced the 348.

Posted on: 2008/9/29 1:27
Guy

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Re: Broke down.
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55PackardGuy
Ach! Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought your post regarding GM's interest in Packard engine design for their BB was separate from the MK I question. It is a more fitting topic for a thread on the V8 forum anyway. I will get outta here now.

Posted on: 2008/9/29 1:08
Guy

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Re: Broke down.
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55PackardGuy


Now, Eric, if you'd just 'splain what the Mark I Chevy BB was, I could stop holding my breath.

mikec,

You're getting a lot of expert advice and seem to be getting closer to the problem. Pulling a valve cover (or head on a flathead) can help pin down a noise real quick. Sometimes, on an engine that makes a funny noise, you can quickly narrow it down to a little thing like a broken piston! I hope that isn't the case for you, but it's amazing what can go wrong and a strong engine will keep going undaunted... for a little while.

Some of the guys mentioned another quick way to assess damage and see how far you have to go... take off the oil pan.

I think that on any old car, one of the best first steps before a lot of mechanical work is to pull the oil plan and check for sludge build-up etc. You'll feel so much better after you know you're putting clean oil in a clean pan. Also, I would pull the pan BEFORE pouring in ATF, MM or other engine-cleaning solvents. That way you don't overload the oiling system with crud that possibly won't flush out of the oil passages.

If the pan hasn't been off for a while, have a putty knife handy for scraping it!

P.S. When you pull those plug wires one at a time--an excellent idea--be sure to listen for an RPM drop (there SHOULD be one) as well as an affect on the noise.

Posted on: 2008/9/29 0:57
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
Eric,

Never heard that one about Chevy looking at Packard V8s. They sure could've done worse. Actually did, from what I've heard about the inefficiency of their early design BB. But what amazes me is that they essentially borrowed a very cumbersome, heavy truck engine (about 664 lbs "dry for the 348) to fill the gap, and somehow sold it on the basis of being a "Chevy." In any car, it made for a plowing, overweight front end. (As you can probably tell, not my favorite engine--except for the sheer audacity of it).

But, what about your previous question? I couldn't find much more than my original guess, except that the "W" or Mk I was available in 427 cu in for the Impala Super Sport. This was a 427 "W" not to be confused with the later 427 "W".

Generation 1 Chevy BB
From 1958 to 61, 348 (used in trucks until 1964)
1962-1964, 409
1963, 427 "Z11" for racing. 57 produced (stroked 409 dual carbs 13.5:1.

Didn't find much on the Mk I except the 1958 "Scarab" Mk I which used a Corvette 283 bored and stroked to 339 and raced against European sports cars.

To revise:
Here's what I found on the MkI and MkII:
Inside Chevrolet Engineering, it [the new non-W race motor] was called the Mark II, a 427ci V-8 that had no bloodline with the 409, which was dubbed the "Mark I."
From this site:
http://www.superchevy.com/features/sucp_0607_mark_iv_big_block_chevy_engine/index.html

Posted on: 2008/9/27 2:08
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
Turbo,

So Chevy repeated a 20-year-old "mistake" except where their dealerships were concerned. They would naturally have "special tool #....." on hand.

So, how're all the current Packard V12 and get 'em-up Chevy owners doing these chores these days?

Interesting stuff.

I'll bite on only one aspect of the MKI. I'm pretty sure it was used only in trucks, and possibly in 427 displacement.

I once saw a nice book on the BB and how it started as Chevy's "answer" to diesel big rigs... and it worked quite well. But then I think they kind of beat themselves with the 2-cylce "Jimmy" GMC diesel.

Please, enlighten us with the real scoop.

Posted on: 2008/9/27 1:24
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
(OK, I think this recent exchange has gone to another venue now. Thanks '53.)

Question for Turbopackman,

If you would, could you say a word about the 348/409 versions of the Chevy Big Block (I believe it used to be referred to as the "W" engine because of the shape of the valve covers). Did they need special boring tools for the non-square cylinder to deck placement? Perhaps this will shed a little light on how Packard V12's were re-bored.

I have a shot of a "Nailhead" block very similar to the front cutaway of the Chevy engine, which shows how Buick achieved some of the same combustion chamber wedge effects with a 90? cylinder-to -eck arrangement and a "canted" head, so veritical valves lining up with the wedge shaped chamber. It's a '58 322 I believe, but I think the general setup was used for all the "Nailheads."

Thanks

Resized Image

Posted on: 2008/9/27 0:25
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
Quote:
As I suggested earlier, my belief is had Packard felt there was a market for a car in the Duesenburg price range, I suspect you would have seen the above "exotic" engine design features, in a reliable engine that would reflect traditional Packard philosophy - translation - would have blown the doors off the Dusie !

In answer to your question about combustion chambers - as for making the angle between the bores and the top of the block different from 90 degrees, GM tried that in some of its high performance engines many many years later.


I don't get the reference to a 'reliable engine.' Was the 2nd generation Packard V12 less reliable than its counterparts? Was Packard's philosophy to "blow the doors off" other big makes? It seems more like they wanted to produce an efficient engine that had a lot of useable power in everyday use. Who had hydraulic lifters back then anyway?

I think the GM engines you're referring to are the "Nailheads" of the '50s and '60s Buicks, with with overhead valves working in an upright motion while the cylinders ran at an angle. Kind of an upside-down version of the Packard design, but it's hard to make a comparison because Packard did not use overhead valves.

No matter who designed the 2nd generation Packard V12 valve geometry, it's quite different from anything I have seen.

Owen, you've got the blueprints, did the engineers sign them?

No matter, whether it was completely Packard engineered or not, I'd say it was a darn good application, and probably unique in automotive engine design.

Posted on: 2008/9/22 22:39
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
Owen,

Thanks for the extra shot of the blueprint, with piston at TDC. I guessed right on what the cross-section of the compression chamber would look like: a triangle instead of a true wedge, with one side of the triangle being the face of the intake valve. Is there any other engine out there that used this design? It looks like it would not only be "free breathing" but would also set up a heck of a swirl for the intake mixture.

It would be highly unlikely we'd have anything like this ever mass produced except for those crazy multi-cylinder "wars" of the '30s. Was that ever the wrong timing for the economic conditions. Maybe Cadillac put out the V16 just to try to run some of the independents out of business playing "catch-up." I wouldn't put it past them.

Somewhere around here I have a blueprint of the '55 V8, and will post a link if and when I find it.

FOUND IT!

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=2351&cid=57

Don't know why it'll only print the link, though. Little help here?

Anyway I posted it in Packard Pictures and it probably should go in one of the more techical sections of the forum.

Posted on: 2008/9/22 21:29
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
As Promised, here's the link to the comparison done by Special Interest Autos on the '55 Cadillac, Imperial, Lincoln and Packard,

http://www.imperialclub.com/Articles/55Luxocar/index.htm

Posted on: 2008/9/21 2:24
Guy

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Re: The Second Packard "Twin Six"
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55PackardGuy
Gads, my very first thread on this site starts a flame war. I had a couple of additional questions regarding the combustion chamber of the 2nd Generation Twin Six and would appreciate it if someone has that info or if they'd like to post it in one of the special article sections here.

I have a pretty good magazine article with reviews of a '55 Packard 400 vs the luxo competition, which I'll post a link to here if I can find it.

Quote:
"New" unsold 1956 Packards sat out in the open in various dealers lots that I am personally aware of, clear into summer of '57. Have no idea how they finally got rid of them.

PackardFan

I know of one place for sure-- auctions, I know this because my dad bought our new 55 Clipper at one, and HE was there, and he wouldn't lie.

I appreciated reading a little more about the Packard/Merlin. However, I think Packard cannot take credit for the original design, but they sure can take it for redisigning an RR engine until it really was like a new engine, with better specs all around. And then they built practically all of them. That engine never would've "flown" without Packard, and people keep insisting on calling it a "Merlin" or a "Rolls Royce" engine. Bah.

Posted on: 2008/9/21 2:08
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