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Board index » All Posts (DShields11)




Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
I found the modification mentioned in the PAC thread to be somewhat ambiguous, so I sent the author of that thread an e-mail. He replied very quickly and said that he didn't do the modification himself. It was done at Ross Miller's Speedwell Garage in Parkton, MD, and the author made notes as he was told what was done to the car. I called Ross and he told me what was done.

The purpose of the modification is to slow down or limit the amount of advance available through the vacuum advance system. By limiting the advance, pre-ignition from that source would be greatly reduced if not eliminated. Since there is no tampering with the basic timing, overall engine performance wouldn't be significantly affected. By putting two flat washers inside that long hex-shaped spring housing that mounts to the diaphragm housing, both the spring and the diaphragm's movement is limited as is the advance available to the breaker plate inside the distributor. It's really very simple yet ingenious when you think about it; I'll refer to this modification as the Miller Method since it's Ross' idea. Ross also said that it's very important to set the spark timing at zero, or TDC; these engines won't tolerate an advanced setting.

The thread author is a real gentleman, sharing his experience very freely. He reported that the modification hasn't stopped the pinging entirely. In his opinion, Packard simply pushed the engine past its limits and there is no real fix for it. He said you just have to live with it and back off the accelerator when it starts to ping. In view of his experience in driving his car from New York City to San Francisco, I'd say his counsel should be heeded. If you're going to "ask the man who owns one" about this problem, he's the one to ask. So unless someone here expresses a good reason not to do this, I'm going to employ the Miller Method on my car.

Posted on: 2014/5/4 21:03
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
Thanks, Richter12X2 and once again, packard1984 for the tips.I know my local Pep Boys did not have a compression gauge in their loaner tools when I was seeing just what they had to loan a while back (maybe someone had it out.) Considering the size of that store, they really didn't have a whole lot of tools to loan. I don't remember seeing one in Advance Auto either, but then again I was borrowing a spring compressor and may not have noticed the gauge. From what I've seen on this thread, it looks like Summit has just about everything.

I've decided to do the fix in the PAC forum thread that OD so kindly listed here. Seems simple enough and it worked for that owner during a coast to coast trip in the summer. So that'll be my next step in stopping the ping.

Posted on: 2014/4/29 21:44
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
Thanks, Jack. I've got to start checking those garage sales!

Posted on: 2014/4/28 20:24
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
Once again, thanks packard1984. I didn't realize how inexpensive those remote starter buttons are. Have to take a look at them.

Posted on: 2014/4/28 1:15
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
Thanks, OD for the link to that thread. Funny that didn't show up in my search before starting this topic; I guess I didn't word the search just right. Interesting fix, I'll have to take a look at my distributor to see what he's talking about. Can't help but wonder if they wouldn't have gotten the same result if they just retarded the timing a little bit.

Thanks, also, packard1984 for your suggestion to unhook the vacuum line and see how it is. I hadn't thought of that. I know to plug the vacuum line or the carb'll be running so lean that it'll most probably create a lean misfire.

I was given a compression gauge years ago by a retiring mechanic. It has to be held in place while the engine cranks. Since I don't have a remote starter and I'm a lone wolf, there's no way I can hold that and turn the ignition key at the same time. That's why I rely on the vacuum gauge readings so much. Now I was checking the vacuum back in '06, so I don't remember the reading exactly but I know it was 20 or 21 and rock steady. It went to near zero when the throttle was goosed and quickly returned to a steady 20 or 21 when the throttle snapped back to idle. I'll be using the gauge before, during and after retarding the spark.

Posted on: 2014/4/27 23:50
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
Responding to the most recent posts, I think the spark timing is set for the 327 engine, 6 degrees BTDC. The 359 spec. is 0 degrees, or TDC. With it advanced that much, with heated fuel and the centrifugal and vacuum advances working, it's advanced too far and results in pinging. Back when the head was welded and ground, I put a vacuum gauge on it and the needle was nice and steady. I don't have a reliable way of performing a compression test, but the vacuum gauge showed that there were no problems with cam timing, casting cracks or porosity, bent or sticking valves, low cylinder compression etc. The prior owner had the electrical system converted to 12 volt, negative ground, point-type ignition, so the spark is nice and strong. There is no backfiring, coolant usage, steam, or burnt coolant odor in the exhaust, so a headgasket problem is ruled out. The problem is an intermittent ping when accelerating under load, not a miss. The noise is a rattling sound similar to dice in a dice shaker.

The carburetor was overhauled three years ago by a rebuilder recommended to me by the local Corvette Club and I can't detect any problems with the carb's performance. The radiator had a half-dozen seepage leaks when I bought it. I took it to a trusted local radiator shop ant they fixed it and flow-tested it. The engine was running hot, I finally traced that to a too-low pressure radiator cap (6#). This cap was venting too soon and too often, dropping the coolant level too low to adequately cool the engine. The parts list shows a 6# cap is OK (not to my experience), but they also list a 12# cap. Couldn't find that, but I did get a 14# cap. That keeps the coolant level up, and now the temperature gauge needle doesn't go anywhere near hot. I installed a 160 degree thermostat when diagnosing this problem.

My repair stategy is this: First I'm going to retard the timing slightly as OD recommends. If that's successful, I'll cut out the octane booster and maybe the premium gas. If needed, then I'll look into the more drastic steps like sending the distributor out and milling piston heads. With this engine running as well as it is, and the booster mitigating the ping as much as it has, I just can't justify the more drastic steps at this time. Since the car travels less than 500 miles per year on average, it'll be some time before I'll know if the first step works or not; I usually only fill the tank twice or so a year. I do use Stabil Marine Stabilizer in the fuel.

I hope I've addressed all the questions; if not please let me know. Many thanks to Owen_Dyneto, RichK, JW, Tim Cole, Jack Vines, Ozstatman and packard1984 for sharing your knowledge and wisdom so willingly. I've learned so much and I'm ever so grateful to have information of this quality, breadth and depth virtually at my fingertips. It just goes to show you, even after more than a century, it's still wisest to "Ask the man who owns one."

Posted on: 2014/4/27 17:51
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
That's a very good question. I, for one, really don't know. I suspect that shaving or milling the combustion chambers might weaken the casting making it much more prone to cracking, especially with aluminum heads. I imagine those design engineers specified the casting thickness to be thick enough to withstand combustion pressures yet thin enough to permit adequate cooling. Changing their tolerances might not be a good idea. Thankfully I didn't encounter that problem with my convertible.

Posted on: 2014/4/25 18:00
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
That's very clever, OD. The dye just tells me if there is any contact or not, but your method goes further in actually measuring the clearance. Very clever indeed.

Posted on: 2014/4/24 23:20
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
I've seen bent valves on OHV engines when the timing belt breaks. This happens when the owner ignores the recommended maintenance schedule. So I put dye on the top of the valves, put the head on without the gasket and cranked it over. No dye transferred to the head so I knew that there was enough clearance that bent valves wouldn't be a concern.

Posted on: 2014/4/24 9:39
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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Re: Ping In 359 Engine
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Don Shields
Rich, I thought about that back in '06 and decided against that. Headgaskets are the weakest point in the head-to-block sandwich, so I felt that a double or thicker gasket would just be inviting trouble. Pulling that head was something I wouldn't want to have to do twice if it could at all be avoided. Standard shop practice dictates a single standard thickness gasket should be installed as per the shop manual. So that's what I went with.

For my car, I'm thinking at this point that the timing was set for the 327 engine, which is way too far advanced for the 359 engine. Thanks for your input.

Posted on: 2014/4/23 23:36
Don Shields
1933 Eight Model 1002 Seven Passenger Sedan
1954 Convertible
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