Thank you, Dr. Cole. 140 weight might be a wee thick for us in the mild greater SF/Oakland Bay Area. Meanwhile, as said, everyone i know is running the usual Pennzoil/Kendall/other major brand GL 5-6 stuff, and i haven't heard any horror stories, including a coupla longtime mechanics who've been overhauling transmissions since the '50s. In fact, no one had the least concern 'til some alarmist bit in Skinned Knuckles from the same characters who bought into the fire in a crowded theater zinc motor oil nonsense.

As posted here months ago, the longtime Kendall tech i spoke with showed me that, for example, the Kendall GT1 10W/30 i use has the SAME zinc level as in the '70s, and we heard no such nonsense back then. The non-problem began when increased ZDDP levels started harming catalytic convertors, so the major oil companies dialed it back to '70s levels.

But all the downhome hotrod black helicopters contingent heard is "zinc being reduced." About that time, a couple vociferous codgers in the 1941 Cadillac Club of America, formerly the CCCA, reported problems with Cadillac's chintzy bronze timing gear in their 346 flathead V-8s, coincidentally after having just been rebuilt. So, as with silicone DOT-5 brake fluid, gasoline, it's always easier to blame the big, bad oil companies, etc. than take a look at the work recently performed.
BTW, the Kendall tech himself owns a well-tweaked '60s Camaro with a flat cam engine, and knows the fellow who developed the 15W/40 "Classic Car Motor Oil" marketed by the Indiana region of the CCCA. The Kendall tech freely admitted that Kendall sold an unnecessary oil with heightened zinc today simply as "....any company that wants to stay in business has to provide people with what they think they need or want."

Meanwhile, we're lucky in that those of us in the Bay Area served by "EBMUD (East Bay Municipal Utility District)" have, along with NYC receiving soft, clean water from the Adirondacks, two of the best, softest water supplies in the nation, our water coming down from Sierra snowmelt.

The downside is the Bay Area is overpopulated HELL, with neverending torrents of twits in SUVs racing to Starbucks and the mall, so if any of you are thinking of moving here, do yourselves a favor and stay put. The only time you can enjoy your Packard on the road is at the crack of dawn on a major holiday like Christmas, New Year's, Thankgsiving, or Stupor Bowl Sunday, i kid you not.

I think the key is soft water, regardless its source.

So, GL-5/6, much ado about nothing?

Happy New Year and Merry Ninth Day of Christmas.

Mr. Greene, in the parlor, with a candlestick holder-- Another adviso against using distilled water in automotive cooling systems was issued circa 1989-90 by Mercedes-Benz, to all their service departments, for the same reason. Am only trying to pass along the best info we have to a newbie as we're discussing cooling systems in general, with a possible eye toward preserving our wheeled survivors. Am not interested in debating quantified chemistry.
For more discussion, visit www.no-rosion.com, the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Club's tech forum.
Caution: Su8overdrive takes evolution over intelligent design, too.

I bow as always to Drs. Cole and O'Dyneto whelming knowledge of our cars stem to stern, but Click and Clack and dozens of others have issued the same warning about antifreeze, pets, kids.

Long as we're wonking, a lifelong pilot/machinist/aero and auto mechanic friend says a Chevron tech recently told him to only use GL-1 gear lube in pre- '60s or so transmissions with yellow metal, as the sulfur in all else eats brass, bronze. I'd thought we'd exhausted this subject, but it would be nice if anyone could conclusively drive a stake through this vampire's heart once and for all for the sake of peace of mind, and not disintegrating our R-9/R-11 transmissions.

Was looking at one of my spare overdrives for the above transmissions t'other day, remarking that it's nearly as big and heavy as the entire manual transmission i helped a friend stuff back in his '41 Cad drophead after he fixed a leak. So i'm sure most of us would rather not have to rebuild our gearboxes, esp. with the hassle of removing that cross member, etc. Hell's bells, a Hudson transmission of the era weighs but 35 lbs.

Everyone in my wide circle of all manner of barouches from both sides of the Atlantic 1930s throgh '60s; Cords, Cads, Ferraris, numerous Packards, has been rolling along happily with GL-5/6 these past decades with nary a report of sulfur/acid damage.

Happy New Year; joy, peace, health, serenity to us all, our wheeled alter egos, their cooling systems, and yellow metal.

The above gents give good advice, and i agree especially with Mssrs. Bumble, post # 4 above--tho' it's better to never start an engine unless you're going to drive 20 miles and get the oil hot enough to avoid sludge, varnish and carbonic acid--- and Cole, #9. A car has to be exposed to two consecutive nights of a hard freeze, 30 or below, to risk a cracked block, but why take chances? The radiator will expand slightly, but if cold enough, and the slush hardens, your block won't give.
Antifreeze is wretched stuff, toxic, but sweet and deadly to small children and pets. It also leaves a film on cooling system passages inhibiting heat transfer, according to a Chrysler engineeer writing in the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg newsletter years ago, and breaks down after two years even in an unopened jug. Conventional green antifreeze should be drained and replaced every two years.

But unless you live in Siberia or Duluth, you don't need a 50-50 mix. Check the chart on the jug for the lowest expected temperature in your region. And use ONLY soft water, never distilled, which is ion-hungry and leaches minerals, like solder, from your cooling system.

Thankfully, in the greater SF/Oakland Bay Area, we can and do get by without antifreeze, just soft water and a quality rust and corrosion inhibitor like www.no-rosion.com which i'm a big fan of and if you order some tell Jay Ross a black '47 Super Clipper in Walnut Creek sent you. When i find a good product for our survivors from a company that goes the extra mile, i believe in spreading the word, otherwise we're stuck with naught but generic crap for modern Kleenex cars. Running straight water also lets you advance your timing another notch for performance and fuel economy.

Any car will run cooler with just straight water and a quality rust inhibitor, than with antifreeze, all else being equal. Doing so is vital in race cars with their tiny frontal area, tho' they may put a teaspoon of the stuff in their system so they can get away with their antifreeze sponsor decal.

If your friend's car's been neglected awhile, it can't hurt to pour a couple pints of kerosene and two pounds of Arm & Hammer washing soda (NOT baking soda!) in the cooling system, drive for a dozen miles, then flush with a garden hose. Run a coat hangar or piece of welding rod in the opened drain plug at the left rear of the block to get any loose sediment out. If you suspect decades of deferred maintenance, he may have to remove the radiator hoses, thermostat and back flush away.

You didn't mention which model your friend's Packard is.
If it's been awhile, it's a good idea to check cylinder head torque warm if iron, cold if aluminum, and the manifold bolts and nuts. This was part of a complete tune up in the day.

Your friend sounds like a newbie, so assure him so long as he keeps oil and water in his lubed, tuned Packard and regardless of its thorough engineering, drives it like the old car it is, not a Taurus, Camry or Accord, he'll be able to enjoy it for perpetuity.

For newer cars with air conditioning, even in Scottsdale or LA in August, you need to use 15% antifreeze merely to keep the heater core from freezing.

To a grand, healthy, relaxed 2013 to all here gathered on the finest automotive website for the world's consistently finest production car, 100 years since Packard's fabled 525-ci Six was renamed the Model 48 for its third year, a model that as much as any cemented the Company's name in the automotive firmament. And why aren't we hearing from any 1911-15 Six owners?

Thank YOU, Kev, for launching,maintaining PackardInfo. No finer automotive site exists on either side of the Atlantic.
We never fail to be pleasantly surprised by the depth and breadth of knowledge here, and the consistent geniality, cordiality, even when---just among ourselves--- we share our divergent Packard tastes.

A fitting site for the crown jewel of Detroit's, and the international motoring industry's once finest manufacturing machine shop.

For decades, Jay Fisher has been offering lovely, faithful, reproduction rear view mirrors for various Classic and vintage cars, the 1941-48 Packard (first year tub used the same style) swan neck belt moulding rear view mirrors. Haven't seen one of his ads in awhile, but:

JAY M. FISHER
Acken Drive 4/B
Clark, NJ 07066
732-388-6442

We're all in accord that the EBay "Darrin" street rod is an abomination, there being a 10/16 thread on this same car on the For Sale/Wanted/Trade forum here. But before someone croaks from apoplexy, let me assure you that, according to Don Figone, who knows as much about Packard Darrins as anyone on this planet, the EBay monstrosity was cobbled from a "Packard Re-in-Car-Nation," Seattle faux Darrin to being with. No living Darrins were harmed in the making of this movi--- bowel movement.

Don's owned several Darrins over the years, including today a quietly stunning '40 One-Eighty victoria, black over black with gray interior, blackwalls, no fog nor driving lights which you never saw in the day anyway, no gargoyle atop hood, just basic baled feather ornamnent. The epitome of Darrin as luxe road car it was intended to be. A master's automobile in anyone's lexicon. You see the alluring car, not the usual baubles. Again, less is more and if only more car folk, Packardians among them, realized this.

I've been after him to post his Darrin, as well as his '42 One-Sixty convertible coupe, a mint original, always pampered jewel he's owned since buying it from the original owner in 1967;
and his crisp maroon '40 One-Twenty convertible coupe on the Owner Registry here. Don's '42 One-Sixty drophead was sold new to a woman high in the Red Cross in 1943. 115,000 miles and only the timing chain's been replaced. At idle, all you hear is the breeze from the fan.

Have to admit i used to secretly covet Darrins, but after driving one of the 15 '42 One-Eighty victorias 60 or so miles, the seating position ergonomics, well, 'tis a personal preference. You sit nearly on the floor, and feel like you're slithering down the road with your feet out nearly straight before you. But then, i passed on an XK-140 FHC and A-H 3000 for much the same reason, as well as the usual English bedevilments.

Of course, Packard Darrins were made to be seen in
as much or more than to drive, so we're not telling tales out of school that the cars straight from East Grand are better automobiles.

But the 1938-40 Darrins, lovely to look at it, and makes you wonder why Packard didn't "Darrinize" the entire 1940 line up. They did a year and a half later with the sleek, tasteful Clipper, but by then, GM's skillful marketing of their 85th-percentile, but glitzy Buicks and Cadillacs, had begun to turn Packard's tide.

Mighty fine. You're right, JW. I'm doing this primarily to impart a finished look, which your car certainly has. I'm told the Custom Supers originally used lowly hogshair in the trunk, Mosstread, which is no longer available from the mills, indoors.

Mine's a Super, so it came with hogshair in the passenger compartment and just a rubber or whatever mat in the trunk.
I picked a gray cutpile carpet used in late model Mercedes to do the interior, and was flattered that a fellow using the same renowned Bay Area auto upholsterer (Armand's Auto Upholstery, Walnut Creek 925-934-4373 est. 1897 ! ) who i heartedly recommend as Armand owns and specializes in Packards,
selected the same carpet for his '41 Packard 180 LeBaron Sport Brougham.

I'm told prewar One-Eighties carpeted the entire trunk, tho' in hogshair. Anyone know what Twelves, etc. did? So i'm going to do that, tho' using the same gray carpet we used in the interior.

After discussion with HH56, believe i'll slap down some Ensolite under the carpet and call it a day. Unsure whether it's worth putting Ensolite on the wheel well arches since these still have the asphaltic flocking or whatever from the factory, which i brushed copious black Rustoleum over as i did the entire trunk compartment, wanting to preserve an already solid California car.

I'd like to carpet the trunk of my '47 Packard Super Clipper. I don't care about originality in this area, since this was a production car, and even with expensive production cars, it was a case of building to a cost and getting it out the factory door. I long ago cleaned the entire trunk floor and compartment down to the healthy existing metal, leaving the mastic/asphaltic stuff on the wheelwheels, and brushed everything with a couple coats of black Rustoleum, after cutting an inspection cover over the gastank sending unit, something i recommend y'all do as Chryslers came with an access panel from the factory and i've no idea why Packard didn't bother. I made a new cover with a four x five-or-so-inch piece of aircraft aluminum and four sheet metal screws.

Obviously, i don't want to use the chintzy mat the factory used. Since prewar One-Eighties,and i believe Twelves, had carpeted trunks, thought i'd throw down the same nice carpet as i used inside the car, not hogshair and again, please, i don't care that hogshair is "correct." It's a goddam trunk.

A friend suggests before laying down the carpet i use Dynamat or Stinger Express Road Kill, akin to the stuff stereo/audio shops use to deaden sound. Is Road Kill overkill? I'm wondering if deadening the trunk would even make a difference sitting behind the wheel, driving down the road.

When we redid the car's interior, we used the usual jute underpad and then the carpet. I'm not interested in redoing that with the above sound deadening material, just the trunk, if, IF any of you think it's worth the bother. Otherwise, i'll just glue the carpet directly into the trunk, or maybe use a layer of felt underpad first,
then carpet and call it a day.

This ain't critical. Just wonder what some of you have done. Many thanks for any insight.

Good advice from 32Model901. In the day, part of a complete tune up was checking head and manifold torque.

Dr. Cole's right as always. Stick a Packard grille on anything. Some codger'll buy it.

Packard was an also ran from the time Alvan Macauley left the Company in 1948. The bathtubs didn't hold a candle to the crisper, hipper, racier looking '48 Cadillac, despite Packard's thorough engineering and build quality.

The 288 and 327 were good, dependable engines. A Mayfair coupe with stick and overdrive one of the best road cars of the early '50s, if not as good a car as a Chrysler New Yorker.

Ultramatic got Consumer Reports' "Best Buy" rating among slushboxes, if automatic transmissions turn you on.

The only worthwhile thing Packard did in the '50s was Torsion Level, and Bill Allison had to sell the hell out of it to Packard's Elmer Fudd management. And it still had Mickey Mouse bugs that'd never, ever have gotten into production when Packard was Packard.

Packard built some fine automobiles before Macauley left.
Let's focus on those.

Dr. Cole's right. You have to have a Packard behind the grille. Refined engineering, quality, chassis stability, above and slightly apart from the fray. Otherwise, what are you purveying?

And the Packards built from the time Alvan Macauley left weren't really Packards, and became less so each year. Several auto journalists then and since commenting that '50s Packards looked like "....bigger, gaudier Fords."

Doesn't mean they were bad cars. But they weren't as good as a Chrysler New Yorker from the '50s, as others here have pointed out. The Caribbean was no more than a Packard version of Buick Skylark, Cadillac Eldorado, Olds Fiesta. All of these overstyled, overweight, vs. regular production cars. Were Packard still Packard then, they'd have produced something rivaling the Bentley R-Type Continental,
a real sporting luxury barouche.

When Packard was Packard they weren't an also-ran. So which Packard are we heralding with the faux grilles, designey cues?

W.O. Bentley had nothing but open respect for Packard. Enzo Ferrari was inspired by Packard. Ettore Bugatti drove a Packard, not Bugatti, on his long, fast European business trips.

No one was or is inspired by bathtubs on, not that the Company hadn't already blundered royally with their clumsy marketing of the otherwise fine junior cars contrasted with R-R/Bentley's adroit selling of Derby-built large/small HP fare, postwar Crewe-assembled Wraith/Silver Dawn/R-Type Bentley on the same 127- and 120-inch wheelbases as concurrent Packards.

We might learn from the Railton Owners Club and other organizations. They're having too much fun with their survivors to worry about bringing out of context design cues into a 21st Century that's loooong moved on.

Listen to Dr. Cole. Perhaps there are too many worn out bombs around. Rather than get them fixed right, as Drs. Cole & Dyneto do, some people want to play with their computers, stick Packard grilles on other also rans.

There was more to Packard than a grille and design cues.
That's why the grille and design cues meant something.

We'd be better served by putting our energies into reproducing quality items that keep our Packards running the way Packard intended, something few people other than Monsignors Santana, Cole, Dyneto really know and appreciate.