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Board index » All Posts (DavidPackard)




Re: Bob's '55 Patrician Blog
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DavidPackard
I harvested my Carter WCFB repair manual for primary throttle shaft part numbers ( see attached PDF file). The bad news is that the primary shaft part numbers vary quite a bit. The Packard numbers are unique . . . I suspect many of the shafts are identical and only differ in the linkage attachment lever that is swaged onto the shaft. At least the shaft in question is a 'left side' configuration, that is I8's use right hand pull, while V8's use left hand pull . . . many more of the latter.
dp

Attach file:


pdf Size: 60.63 KB; Hits: 36

Posted on: 2019/1/3 13:15
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Re: Bob's '55 Patrician Blog
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DavidPackard
Here is an excerpt from a Carter WCFB Service Manual on the subject of removing throttle valves.

"File off staked ends of throttle valve attaching screws and remove screws and throttle valves from the bores."

Carter most likely marked the valve plates with a 'C' to indicate correct orientation in the carburetor flange. The plates must be returned to the original configuration.
Carter recommends replacement of the throttle valve retaining screws . . . they are a 'use once' item.
Flange and/or shaft wear maybe accommodated by bushings or plating.

I would take the throttle shaft to a local machinist to drill the broken screws. You may have some luck by drilling from the broken head side with a 'right-hand' drill. I would start small and not attempt the correct tap drill size until an effort was made to drive the screw completely through the shaft . . . . meaning, without the head the screw should be able to pass through the shaft as a 'headless' set screw.

I don't know if the 'LocTite' comment was genuine, but if it was there are recommendations on which product to use based on the screw size. If 'red' LocTite was used the assembly must be heated to destroy the locking characteristic of the product. If this is not done the product is stronger than the screw itself and the head will likely sheer in torsion. This heating process should also be done prior to drilling if the fondest hope of driving the screw out with the first drill size is ever going to happen. The LocTite website will have 'time at temperature' recommendations to defeat the locking feature of their products.

I checked a few part numbers for the secondary throttle shaft and found that the Packard part was not unique, in fact the first 'other carburetor' I checked was for a '56 Chevy (Carter 2366S or 2366SA) and it had the same secondary throttle shaft part number. Given the accelerator pedal and transmission linkage, I suspect the primary shaft may become specific to a particular vehicle, but the shaft itself is likely same with a different lever swaged on. Likewise I found the throttle shaft screws seem to be ubiquitous, and are used in many, if not all, WCFBs.

dp

Posted on: 2019/1/1 13:32
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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DavidPackard
First try docx file Edge as IE
Second try dox file IE11
Third try pdf file IE11

Attach file:


pdf Size: 192.07 KB; Hits: 62

Posted on: 2018/12/2 23:05
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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DavidPackard
Attaching a file didn't seem to work. Second try.

Posted on: 2018/12/2 22:54
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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DavidPackard
I've made some progress on the issue of my '48 Deluxe Eight running rough. Unfortunately I think it was my fault . . . and I've misunderstood the configuration of the fuel system for the last 4 ? years. When I bought the car it had an auxiliary electric fuel pump that was plumbed in the 'draw through' configuration, just like my '54 Cavalier, however advice found on the AACA website suggests that for the type and brand of pump installed on the '48 power should have been supplied continuously, yet I was powering the pump for 'priming' purposes, and on occasion to recover from rough running. Once I had changed the E-pump to a design compatible with 'draw through' plumbing the car seems to have recovered, and runs much better. I've attached a file that fills-in a few more of the details.

Posted on: 2018/12/2 22:49
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Re: Flexing wheels on 54 Cavalier
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DavidPackard
Jim;
Try a search 'Wheel cover moving', or 'Wheel cover rotation'.
Previous and current forum guidance appears to be;

? Bend wheel cover 'tangs' to increase retention/rotation force
? Dabs of silicon to provide additional anti-rotation 'glue'
? Metal valve stems

Based on the responses to previous postings I suspect the first and third items are in your future. There doesn't seem to be a lot of responses supporting the prognoses of a 'flexing wheel' . . . it seems to be a characteristic of 'full wheel covers' whose 'tangs' have lost their grip . . . not so much which particular tire design is installed.

I personally never had wheel covers moving around jeopardizing the valve stems, but then again the 'tangs' on my Cavalier are quite aggressive . . . big rubber mallet required to install and lots of paint loss when the covers were removed. It did take a while to get over the idea that the paint on the wheel was sacrificial.

DP

Posted on: 2018/11/18 20:36
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Re: Charging question
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DavidPackard
Mea culpa, my comments about exciting an alternator were directed to the 'three wire' configuration . . . lost my head.

Years ago I was given the advice to use a 'three wire' alternator whether I was doing a simple swap of the generator, or a conversion from 6 to 12 volts. The logic is/was the 'three wire' configuration was the OEM configuration, and if you need a replacement 'on the road' the availability will be better if you're looking for a 'bone stock' alternator. While 03:00 is the most common clocking I would re-index to 12:00 to accommodate accessibility of the wiring. Re-clocking an alternator on the side of the road is far easier that swapping a pulley, which may be the biggest challenge if you're running a belt wider than 3/8 inch.

Howard, the Delco 10SI was produced with various outputs, but I believe the maximum is/was 63 amperes. GM would size the alternator commensurate with the optional equipment delivered with the car. The air conditioned cars would normally get the largest alternator. 10SI cooling was marginal beyond the 63 ampere output. This was addressed in the 'new and improved' 12SI design, which in addition to the improved cooling also boosted the output to 95 amperes . . . quickly used-up with the introduction of rear window defrosting. All previous values are for the 12 volt configurations.

In the 6 volt, positive ground world I know both 35 and 60 ampere units are available, with, by the way, very little difference in cost. Both are touted as 'ONE CONNECTION' alternators. When I went looking for regulators for the 10SI I found both 'one wire' and 'three wire' for 12 volts, but only 'one wire' for 6 volts. So by this time 'one connection' may be the only configuration left for 6 volt alternators.

I still like the idea of a 'three wire' set-up for the 12 volt units.


dp

Posted on: 2018/11/2 13:46
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Re: Charging question
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DavidPackard
I've observed the two items that BigKev just talked about, namely, a bit of hysteresis between the 'cut-in' and 'cut-out' speed, and a slight delay in the response of the alternator.

I would say there was about a one second delay between me turning 'ON' the excitation circuit switch and the LED turning off. That would be at the 'normal' idle speed (throttle closed, timing at full advance). The delay was somewhat longer when the engine was at the ridiculously low idle (throttle closed, timing at full retard). Once the alternator was on-line I could turn OFF the circuit, and unless I went back into the ridiculous idle mode the alternator would stay on-line. By the way the Model A distributor does not feature centrifugal or vacuum advance, but there is a lever on the left side of the steering column to adjust the spark timing. There is a bit of 'high pilot workload' when driving that car, but that's why there can be more than one idle speed.

I suspect BigKev is using the standard #55 bulb, which should draw something like 1/3 ampere (perhaps less when fully warm . . . I've also assumed BigKev's car is 6 volt). My experience is with 1 ampere current flow, albeit I tried several lower currents. I used 4 - 100 ohm resistors in parallel which is equivalent to a single 12.5 ohm resistor ( the Model A was converted to 12 volt, which started this whole mess in the first place, so my resistor values are for a 12 volt application). My mini science project included using 3 and then 2 of the same resistors in parallel. That resulted in approximately 0.4 amperes for the 3 resistor configuration, and approximately 0.25 amperes for the 2 resistor configuration. More current resulted in a lower 'cut-in' speed, while less current resulted in a higher 'cut-in' speed.

As a test, a temporary parallel circuit with another #55 bulb could be used to see if the alternator could be convinced to work at the low hot idle condition . . . not there is anything wrong with the alternator not working at very low speed . . . I just have an aversion to seeing 'red lights'. I have an excerpt from a mid '70s Oldsmobile shop manual, it shows a resistor in parallel with the indicator bulb, so that manufacture was using parallel circuits to control the current flow to the alternator during periods of 'off-line' operation. I suspect the resistor was the control, while the light was just for us. That wiring diagram references the resistor as 10 ohms, which would result in approximately 1.25 ampere current (12 volt application). I would expect if BigKev doubles the current flow by adding a second #55 light bulb circuit he should see a difference in the hot idle 'cut-in' speed.

It's not clear to me if the generator/regulator indicating bulb in a '51-'54 Packard acts as a source of excitation, or is merely an indicator. If the intent was that of an indicator only the bulb size may not be optimized for the modern alternator excitation task. Even if the bulb was instrumental in the excitation of the generator I suspect optimization would still be in order for the Delco 10SI.

Since Roundsy's 23nd series car should have an ammeter, and not an 'idiot light', then some type of additional wiring will be in order to move the 'cut-in' speed to a lower value. I would be inclined to follow the GM design of using a parallel resistor & bulb circuit. I've used Radio Shack 12V LEDs on my 6 volt Packards, and the LEDs seem to work just fine and are available in several colors. Since the current flow of the LED is trivial the resistor should be sized to limit the excitation current to whatever Fifth Avenue suggests. For resistors I use Ohmite brand that are packaged in a fined aluminum housing.

DP

Posted on: 2018/10/29 11:52
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Re: Charging question
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DavidPackard
Roundsy;

If Fifth Avenue agrees that your alternator may be externally excited, then you can lower the 'cut-in' by installing an 'idiot light'. Sounds strange but it works because the bulb current creates a bit more magnetism inside the alternator while it's 'off-line'.

The information you need from Fifth Avenue is;
A.) Is the alternator configured for external excitation?
B.) What is the nominal and maximum current allowed in that circuit?

On your next posting let us know what the supplier's response, plus the voltage ( 6 or 12 ) and polarity ( negative ground or positive ground ) of your car.

I've 'fixed' one of my alternator equipped old cars using this method. You can use an incandescent bulb, or an LED and resistor. Since there is a limited amount of current adjustment with the single incandescent bulb configuration I used the LED & resistor method. I tried several different resistor combinations and settled on a resistance that allowed the 'cut-in' speed of the alternator to be close to the idle speed of the engine. I put one additional switch in the circuit, which allowed me to start the engine and establish a reasonably well idle, and then I would activate the alternator. You could really tell an extra load had just been put on the engine, but that was a low horsepower, low compression ratio original Model A engine.

DP

Posted on: 2018/10/28 11:37
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Re: Series 23 Stalling
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DavidPackard
Good input!
I believe I changed the hose when I changed the pump, but I can't find an entry in the book I keep reminding me on what I've worked on, or changed. So since I can't tell I'll install a new line and report back. Due to other commitments it may take me the better part of a month to update the topic thread.

Considering I had the same loss of fuel pressure symptom at the same street intersection on two different days with a 40 F difference in outside air temperature, and a 30 F difference in coolant temperature that does suggest that I'm not dealing with a phase change problem.

The E-pump was installed with a few neoprene lines, so I'll change out those also . . . . They might be quite old (I did not get the maintenance records when I bought the car). To turn this into a proper science experiment I'll change one line at a time.

To counter the Frost & French experience I do pressurize the hose to 3+ psi every time I prime the carburetor with the E-pump. There has never been the slightest hint of an overboard fuel leak. I guess the hose could be collapsing to an area that is quite restrictive and the E-pump pushes it back to an acceptable area. Why the damn thing only misbehaves early in a drive and more times than not on a turn may have to remain a mystery.

Thanks again for the input. The hose is at the top of the list of things to do.
dp

Posted on: 2018/10/17 22:57
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