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Board index » All Posts (su8overdrive)

Bob & Ray Packard ads
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Does anyone have, CAN anyone find, assuming any survive, any of the ads Bob & Ray did for the Boston area Packard dealers, one of their sponsors, circa 1948, when they were on WHDH? If not as irreverent as Henry Morgan, Bob & Ray were not above playing sound effects and inserting comedy voices, sighs, during commercials, as they did later on WOR in NYC in the early, mid-'70s.

We can only hope Ray Goulding's character, Calvin Hoogavin, commented, during the bathtub years, on "....the new Deluxe Eight...the new Custom DeLuxe Super Duper Eight,"
and so on.

Ray Goulding died way too young in 1990, but Bob Elliott is still around, and some of you may've seen his comedian son, Chris Elliott on various tv shows, and his granddaughter Abby Elliott on Saturday Night Live. In fact, all three generations performed on SNL.

Meanwhile, trust Cardina--- ooops, um, Mr. JW will forgive
this wee comic divergence as it pertains to Packards.


The Defrocked Su8overdrive

Posted on: 2012/4/5 3:00

Re: PMCC Exec: Ed Cunningham Passed Away
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Never met Ed Cunningham, but read one of his reminiscences of a practical joke played on a fellow Packard employee in a CCCA quarterly years ago. Didn't realize he was allied at one point with S.H. "Wacky" Arnolt, one of the first importers of sports cars to the US in the '50s, responsible for the Arnolt-MG, Arnolt-Bristol, etc. Ed sounded like an
interesting gentleman, catholic* in his automotive tastes.
Godspeed, Edward J. P. Cunningham.

* be assured, JW, we are using lower-case catholic in
the secular sense above

Posted on: 2012/4/5 2:34

Re: How much did BS advertising like this hurt Packard?
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Sadly, the title of the ad the Rev. JDKC posted, above the picture of the elegant young couple, betrays Packard's fall and desperation:

"America's new choice in fine cars."

From at least 1912 through 1947 there'd be no need for the adjective "new," and "America's" would've been "The world's..."

Posted on: 2012/4/4 15:33

Re: Comparative Engine Torque ratings Packard Vs Other Fine cars
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Thank you, Padre. I never cease to be impressed by the depth, thoughtfulness, thoroughness, scope and civility encountered on this site, which reflects the refinement of Packard in their heyday, enhancing our stewardship, making us all the prouder to own Packards.

Posted on: 2012/4/4 15:20

Re: Comparative Engine Torque ratings Packard Vs Other Fine cars
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Deacon 55Guy -- Perhaps i should clarify. 446 was the number of final year (1939) Packard Twelves produced, each of them to order, essentially leftover '38s with alternately painted grille bars and column shift. Wonderful cars, but like the splendid final year '38 Pierce-Arrows with overdrive standard (!), only 18 produced (leftover '37s);

the 24 leftover '39 Lincoln Ks sold as 1940 models;

and 61 leftover '39 Cadillac V-16s sold as '40 models,

they were rendered obsolete by recent developments in "pocket luxury cars," as well as more egalitarian times.

The 1935-39 Packard Twelve torque figures you ask about are in my above post and Father 58L8134's chart earlier in this thread.

The bigger point is that all other 1939-on Packards were junior based, until the 1941 Clipper, which despite using a high-compression version of the One-Twenty's rugged 282-ci eight, was neither junior nor senior, but priced squarely between them, in the midst of what Packard, and GM, saw as the more vital "Lexus" tier of Buick Roadmaster/Cadillac Series 61/Chrysler New Yorker/Lincoln Zephyr. The 1942 160/180 Clippers were simply this car with the otherwise identical frame 1/64th of an inch thicker --talk about tooling yourself to death--and the senior 356 engine, with limousine editions after the war. The junior 1942-47 Clippers had shorter front end sheet metal on an abbreviated 120" wheelbase.

When you consider how much sleeker these junior Clippers were than the frumpy Standard Steel-bodied 1946 Silver Dawns and R-Type Bentleys on the same 120" wb, you shudder at those ex-GM production men running Packard after the war who insisted on chasing low-rung Buicks and Oldsmobile. 75% of Packard's postwar production was such fare. Packard learnt volume production from GM, but alas, not how to market.

But now we're bleeding into Bishop Green's neighboring advertising lament.

The other half of my point was that ALL Cadillacs 1936-on were junior cars, sharing components with lesser GMobiles. Even the final 1938-40 431-ci flathead V-16 Series 90 shared otherwise the same package as the three-main-bearing V-8 Cadillac Series 75.

Even Rolls-Royce, that "great confidence trick," as one esteemed English motoring journalist referred to the company, knew enough to cadge just production tips from Buick while keeping their own mystique.

Packard blew it. Afraid i agree with "Uncle Tom" McCahill's assessment of the '48 bathtub, "....a goat." And to most people, '51-on Packards looked like little more than bigger, gaudier Fords; also-rans. Packard's sole novel feature of the '50s, Torsion-Level suspension, came from an outside engineer who had to strenuously sell it to Packard's execs. Before y'all hurl brickbats, i had a '51 with only 48,414 miles from new, the little old lady from Hawthorne, if not nearby Pasadena. Good ergonomics, but just being "as good as" or "nearly as powerful as" was not what Packard was all about in their heyday. A Mayfair coupe with stick and overdrive was a nice ride for the '50s. But that's also not enough for the company that was P A C K A R D only a decade earlier.

Hispano-Suiza wound up making pumps for nuclear power plants, most of Rolls-Royce's business 1935-on was aero engines, the cars a boutique sideline, yet still skillfully marketed.

The above heresy's just my 'umble opine. Sorry, but i'm not one of those who bows and scrapes to everything with a Packard badge, tho' i want to emphasize these are only sentiments i've observed at large over the many years and that in the words of the Episcopal Church, at Packard Info.com, "All are welcome."

You asked about Buick's ohv 320 straight eight being something of a dog in its later years. It was detuned from its troublesome, gas-slurping 1941-42 Compound Carburetor guise after the war, but the main problem was that Buicks, like most cars, grew ever heavier. The engine was saddled with the Dynaslush transmission and yes, Ultramatic's direct-drive lock up torque convertor was a vast improvement. But again, just being "better than" Buick, or sorta/maybe/almost as good as Cadillac, Chrysler
wasn't what the car formerly known as the American Rolls-Royce was all about.

As for the variance in specs between Packard's last Packard-built engine, the 352 (the '56 374 was the same block bored out another 1/8th inch) in the junior and senior editions, i leave that to any '50s specialists here gathered. I'm still wondering why the 327 inline L-head in the Packard 300 had five main bearings, while the 327 inline L-head 400 Patrician has nine.

Your family drove that '55 as daily transportation from new through 1969 without any trouble with the oil pump or Torsion-Level control box rusting/shorting out? From what i know of those cars, that's mighty fine.

Address brickbats to: P. O. Box 194856
Del Rio, TX

"The clowns at the circus, they're real funny. On the
highway, they're murder."

-- Broderick Crawford (Dan Mathews), Highway Patrol

Posted on: 2012/4/4 5:23

Re: Water pump/Engine mount
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Rev. Earl, nothing wrong with Red Line(yours above). I used their stuff before i heard of No-Rosion in the mid-'90s. What's nice about No-Rosion is that it's good for five (5) years, and in the bargain, a better deal if you order it direct.

I still use Red Line Lead Substitute, which is a good, vetted product. Even engines with hardened valve seats can benefit from Red Line Lead Substitute should you be in the mountains or are otherwise pulling a lot of manifold pressure. Cheap insurance, and uses sodium instead of lead to cushion the valves during that nanosecond microweld each time they close.

But i've yet to find anything equal to No-Rosion and soft water for the cooling system. I learnt of it from a late friend who used nothing but in his Delahayes, Delage, Hispano-Suiza H6 and J12, Bugatti Type 101, a Packard Twelve, Marmon 16, Nash-Healey-- a real menagerie. Several took awards at Pebble Beach, but unlike most of those trailer queens, he insisted each of his cars run like the automobile it originally was, which i can vouch for.

That's reason #237 why i like PackardInfo.com. Most of us here believe in driving our cars now and then.

Posted on: 2012/4/3 19:48

Re: 1937 Packard 1091CD Obround Upholstery Buttons
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Realize we're on the wrong coast, but if anyone can help, call Armand Annereau, Armand's Auto Upholstery, 2660 Main Street, Walnut Creek, CA 94597-2729, 1 (925) 934-4373

Armand owns, runs a now fourth-generation auto/carriage upholstery shop in business since 1897, has done much work for the local Behring Auto Collection, Blackhawk Museum, specializes in Packards, has owned or owns three prewar models (and a couple postwar). Armand has the upholstery books for most years Packard issued only to their larger dealerships. If a fabric, fitting, trim item is still available anywhere, Armand can or already has sourced it.
He did the upholstery in my '40 and '47 Packards, other than the original houndstooth seating surfaces in my Super Clipper which were protected from new by both factory and dealer-installed seat covers.

Armand for decades was the one judges at Bay Area shows including Silverado, Hillsborough, Palo Alto turned to with a tricky authenticity question.

Hope this helps.

Posted on: 2012/4/3 16:06

Re: Comparative Engine Torque ratings Packard Vs Other Fine cars
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Interesting thread. Below are some figures i've unearthed over the years. Am also including a few already listed above, only as they differ slightly in torque or rpm.

1930-36 ohv 452-ci Cadillac V-16, 160 hp/3,400 rpm,
318 ft. lbs. torque/1,000 rpm, which admittedly sounds like a low speed, but that was a fairly august source.

Same engine as above, same compression, in 1937 rated 186 hp/3,800 rpm, but don't know torque figure.

Unable to find torque rating for 1938-40 L-head 431-ci Cadillac V-16, rated 175 hp 1938, 185 hp 1939-40 though compression unchanged. Perhaps Clark Street issued 185 to counter Packard's 175 hp (180 w/ optional high compression heads) Twelve?

1936-37 Cord 810/812, 220 ft. lbs./1,700 rpm
supercharged '37 812, 260 ft. lbs./2,200 rpm
England's respected Autocar magazine reported 272 ft. lbs. @ 3,000 rpm for the blown Cord

Duesenberg J 362 ft. lbs./1,500 rpm

1938-39 Lagonda sohc V-12, about the same cylinder dimensions as the peaky Lincoln Zephyr, 221 ft. lbs./4,000

491-ci ohv Marmon V-16, 6.25 compression, 407 ft. lbs. at
1,600 rpm

'35 Packard 319-ci Eight, 260 ft. lbs./1,600 rpm

'35 Packard 385-ci Super Eight, 300 (est.)ft. lbs./1,600

1932-34 445-ci 160-hp Packard Twelve, 322 ft. lbs/1,400
England's respected Jan P. Norbye cites 348 ft. lbs./1,400 for the above Twelve.
366 ft. lbs./1,400 for the 1935-39 Twelves jives w/ above

A minor note, but all the sources i've seen cite the Packard 282-ci engine producing peak torque at 1,800, not 1,700 rpm

Packard, Motor Manual, Chilton, all sources cite 292 ft. lbs. at 1,800 for the 160-hp 1940-41, 6.41:1 compressioned 356. All sources retain the 292 ft. lbs. figure through 1950, though at 2,000 rpm 1942-on, when compression was raised to 6.85:1.
Curiously, Packard listed 160 hp 1948-50, which makes you wonder if 165 hp was simply to counter the 1941-42 senior Buick, and East Grand retained that figure after the war not knowing if Flint would reprise their troublesome Compound Carburetion. Poured bearings notwithstanding, the 1941-42 Buick had a fairly wild cam for a passenger car engine, and a split exhaust manifold, pretty racy stuff.

We know Packard was and is a finer car, but Dutch Darrin accurately, succinctly summed Packard's desperate situation when they asked him to render what became the Clipper:

"Packard was so afraid of GM they couldn't see straight."

Darrin said then, and in the decades after, that Packard had the finest chassis in the industry. And we here gathered know Packards were and are finer road cars than the concurrect GMobiles. But Packard's unseen quality was lost on most new car buyers as they headed for showrooms before the war. Consider GM's racy new C bodies that came out halfway into the '40 model year, toss in Hydramatic, and Packard was clearly on the ropes with shopworn bodies from 1938.

Packard themselves had to recruit GM production men to build the One Twenty, and in the years leading up to the war, Rolls-Royce annually disassembled a new Buick Limited for the latest Detroit production tips. All 1939-on Packards except the final 446 Twelves were junior-based.
Of course, so were the 1936-on Cadillacs. But this is car buff jazz, and Darrin's comment says it all. In the marketplace, it's about perception, image.

Again, am not interested in coulda, woulda, shoulda. Only in what was. I'm sold. Already own a Packard. But some of us want "just the facts, ma'am," not buff spin.

Hope the above figures help, or are at least interesting.

Perhaps one of these days, someone will unearth sanctioned top speeds of the 1941-42 Buick Century/Roadmaster with the rare no-cost optional "economy" 3.6:1 rear axle in place of the standard 3.9, and the 1942-47 Packard 160/Super Clipper with overdrive. I won't lose much sleep if the 3.6-cogged Buick's half a click faster. We already know the Packard will cruise extreme speeds longer with less wear and drama, corner flatter than Buick's cheap rear coil springs shared with Oldsmobile. But it would be interesting to find absolute speeds for both cars.

The war may've overshadowed everything, but someone, somewhere, must've timed these two fastest cars of the '40s 'til the '49 Cadillac ohv and '51 Chrysler hemi V-8s.

Please, no hearsay. Sanctioned results only.

Posted on: 2012/4/3 5:31

Re: Preventive Measure
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Can we still make jokes about GMobiles and Crewe's Pressed Steel products?

Posted on: 2012/3/30 16:02

Re: Water pump/Engine mount
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Evans is 100% glycol, which doesn't transfer heat nearly as well. Using 100% glycol raises cylinder head temperatures tremendously, calling for increased octane, ignition retarding, resultant loss of horsepower. Other than the safety issues, there's a reason race cars use pure water, despite any antifreeze company sponsor decals. Race cars need thermal efficiency for their smaller radiators, lower CD ratings. Avoid Evans and, IF your car is not exposed to sustained hard freeze, antifreeze like the plague.

If your car has air conditioning, even if you live in Phoenix or LA, you'll still need 10-15% antifreeze to protect the heater core even in August.

But otherwise, if you value your Packards as the serious road cars they can be, avoid glycol.

Posted on: 2012/3/28 16:04

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