Profound thanks, Dave, for launching this long overdue thread. Most here gathered demonstrate a grasp of the mother tongue above and beyond most dumb car guy sites, perhaps not surprising as they've the education to appreciate and afford
Packard refinement. A few glimpses of Company publications,
especially from the brass era through the Alvan Macauley
years, he leaving April, 1948, reveal this refinement extended to advertising, shop and parts manuals, press releases.

That, and tho' this be an informal venue 'mongst kindred spirits, bothering to proof what you write before clicking submit is a simple show of courtesy, respect for the reader.
Also, we tend to question the credibility of the poster's
knowledge when he shows less than a nodding familiarity with the language we all share.

The Packard family was of direct English ancestry, after all, and i note the 1941-47 Clipper Master Parts Book refers to my car's hood as the "bonnet." So given the fine engineering throughout our cars; that Packard consistently
offered in all endeavors, and advertised in the New Yorker and Literary Digest, among others, we might bother to put a wee bit of effort into our posts.

Thanks again, Dave.

Amen, Cardinal Cole. Yours above well sums it. If some fellow at the University of Tennessee.... wants to fill his tenure writing yet another breathless postmortem rehash of the obvious, apparently there's a cottage industry doing that instead of um, uh, b u i l d i n g things.

There's a glut of MBAs, none of whom make pies, only re-slice the existing.

Enough with these what ifs. While we sat around so enthralled, the very real Packard factory gradually became useless even for Starbucks, skateboarders, warehousing, logistics companies and restuarants.

Lotta early retirement talent visits this site. Perhaps
some of you might launch another reproduction rubber company
so Lynn Steele stops taking us for granted and to the cleaners.
Do something, a n y t h i n g productive other than deep sea diving to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Are there any of us here gathered who spend more time on
our cars than playing with computers?

Meanwhile, no one addressed any of my questions raised
on the Packard Proving Grounds Certificate thread of a week or two ago, which need vetted fact, not conjecture, the former something in as short supply as NOS Carter WDO carburetors. Here again:

"Meanwhile, tho' it's been over a year, we still await any SAE or other papers contrasting Packard's Saf-t-fleX IFS with the GM style used in the 1941-47 Clippers and beyond, and beginning in the R-R Silver Cloud/Bentley S-Series autumn, 1955. We know both are good. But it'd be interesting to see some hard engineering data, a report from a then current "Automotive Industries," something conclusive.

Or engineering papers comparing the four-main-bearing 473-ci Packard Twelve with the seven-main-bearing Pierce 462-ci V-12. We know the Packard had a more modern chassis, but what of the engines?

How about engineering papers --not buff hearsay or press releases -- from the day contrasting the 384-ci Chrysler Imperial, Packard and Pierce nine-main-bearing senior eights, which shared identical bore/stroke?

Or comparing the concurrent Packard with the excellent 1927-33 Stutz?

Most of us here gathered own Packards. We're sold. But let's not live in a vacuum or fantasyland. And that includes each and every Packard Twelve driven

" 2 5 0 "

miles before delivery. So that means the 384-ci eights were only driven, what, 185 miles?"

"Gentlemen" is a relative term, and used as marketing in
Packard's heyday. To see another gentleman in the auto
industry and another opportunity Packard handed to Cadillac on a silver platter, Google: Nicholas Dreystadt and GM, Cadillacs and African-Americans

Nice job and Dave above's right. ANY car should have seatbelts, and a fire extinguisher. Be glad you have an old body style Packard, because in 1941-47 Clippers, seatbelts require notching the back of the front steel shell seatback to get the best angle to the floor. Always use H U G E washers, etc. under the floor to spread the force.

Would like to hear from anyone who's replaced the front door hinge post weather strip, Lynn Steel's part # 30-0351-73, on a 1941-47 Clipper.
How, exactly, did you do it, and did you manage to somehow do it without loosening the fender bolts accessed by removing the kick panels? A veteran Packard friend cautions against touching these bolts if your hood/front clip/doors are in the same happy alignment as when your car left the factory, which my '47 Super Clipper is, being an otherwise rebuilt always garaged California car.

I hesitate to ask for concise insight because too many seem compelled to impress us making big productions out of everything, the inference being that readers will think their cars must be really swell and worth more money.

So please, spare us. We've done enough projects, just want the short version.

BTW, a veteran Packardite says unless you really, really h a v e to, leave the dried out old original alone.
He also dislikes the Steele replacement, which lacks the original's steel strip core, so the external, visible portion that doesn't slip between fender and cowl must be
glued in place. Otherwise, it pulls through the screws.

However, mine's hard as a brick and i want to replace it.
Amazingly, the weatherstrip around the doors' other three sides is still pliable, just the front door hinge pillar is rock hard. This same fellow says he used a foamier, spongier generic weatherstrip around the three sides of customers' and his own Packards than Steele's as the latter's is too stiff, you have to practically slam the doors. But this is an aside, as my focus now is finding out if there's an E-Z way to extricate the 67-year-old, petrified seals which time has bonded to the cowl/fender.

Decades ago, i got many parts for an earlier Packard from Metro Moulded Parts in Milwaukee, who are still around, make decent items and oft for less than Steele, who despite making many important bits we all need, takes us to the cleaners.

But for now, please, any insight into quick and nasty, crude but effective, replacement of the front door hinge weatherstrip. At the end of the day, much as i like this spoilt rotten gothic-grilled b__ch, i don't think Briggs bodies are as nice as Fisher. Briggs may've built to Packard specs, but then, look who was running Packard in the '40s.

Similarly, Pressed Steel supplied half the English car industry. But i imagine what they stamped for Crewe was a cut above what they whacked out for Austin, Rover, etc.

Probably shouldn't have posed the above, because i never got response to the questions on my post on the recent Packard Proving Grounds Certificate thread on the Postwar 1945-54 forum, and i've no interest in conjecture, "....just the facts, ma'am."


So, unless you've hard SAE, Automotive Industries article from the day or the like, perhaps better to stick with my simple front door hinge post weatherstrip replacing made easy request, because if you believe Packard drove EVERY Twelve

2 5 0

miles before delivery just because of some cute certificate signed by racing household name Tommy Milton, i've got real estate for you in Florida and a bridge in NYC. Get real. Especially since each engine had allegedly already been run for an hour by electric motor and six hours under its own power before being installed. It was supposedly then run for more than an hour on a dynamometer.

If those valve silencers hadn't run in by then, they never would, and what wealthy soul wanted to shell out that sort of money for a used car? There was this other company down the road on Clark Street, started with a C, Cad-something, whose products were priced tightly against Packard, model for model, competition in the luxe market as cutthroat as in Ford/Chevy/Plymouth/Essex trenches. But i'm repeating my above mentioned post.



Thanks!

Note that the certificate is signed by Tommy Milton, the famous Indy 500 and other big event winning driver, who i think only showed up at the Packard Proving Grounds a week or two a year, so Packard could say, truthfully, that he was on their payroll and "worked" at the Proving Grounds.

Of all the names that might've signed the certificate, they use Tommy Milton's, a nationally known name even among bankers, business owners who might not have followed motor racing.

Sorry, but i see shades of the brass dash plaques slapped on each 1935-36 Auburn supercharged speedster while still in the factory with an arbitrary figure just over 100 mph signed by Ab Jenkins.

I like to think the difference 'twixt even hardcore Packardites like us and the usual clubbies who swallow anything with a Packard logo (or Auburn malarkey, or Duesenberg's "265 hp," etc.) is that we think, question, and aren't babes in the woods.

BTW, even if Packard was conning, this doesn't reduce the Twelve's stature as overall, the finest luxe carriage from either side of the Atlantic in the '30s. It just underscores how tough 'twas to sell cars at any level of the market then.

Note what they say about acceleration and top speed tests within the 250 miles of individual testing. Each car, really? Each 1931-33 Marmon 16 was supposedly lapped twice at 105 mph (they each had a 3.78:1 rear axle) at the nearby Indy brickyard, but that was it.

Packard made a quality product, and charged for it. However, regardless their margins, they had to remain price competitive with Cadillac, and the model
for model pricing was often v e r y close. Skip the "car built for gentlemen by gentlemen" and look at the Big Picture. Business at the upper echelon of the market was even tougher than in the Ford/Chevy, Plymouth, Essex trenches. Each Twelve driven 2 5 0 miles?

Really? I don't buy it.

Also, over a decade later in my '47 owner's 'manual:
" The Break-In Period -- The manner in which any new car is driven for the first 250 miles has a pronounced effect upon its subsequent operation and this applies to the brakes, gears, rear axle, and other units, as well as to the engine.
The best procedure is to refrain from even momentary wide-open throttle operation. Unless emergency demands it, do not fully open the throttle for acceleration or hill climbing and limit speeds to 50 miles an hour until at least 250 miles have been driven. Observance of this advice will pay big dividends in ultimate satisfation."

So, fellow Packardites, let's think this through and be honest. "Our company" made a world-class product, arguably the world's consistently finest production automobile during the first half of the 20th Century. But might these Proving Ground certificates signed by Tommy Milton be simply shrewd marketing?
And if they really did the below with each Twelve, when did it stop? 1933?

Or....perhaps Packard did spend all this arduous time flogging each brand spanking new Twelve, picking up gravel nicks, for 250 miles against their own owner's manual adviso for "every Twelve" for a week or so, in order to print this certificate with a modicum of truth.

Alvan Macauley, on hearing of Henry Ford's paying his workers five dollars a day, accused Ford of "....running a charitable institution."

The miserable Taylor time and motion studies that led to Charlie Chaplin's 1936 send up of industrial hell, "Modern Times," were started at Packard shortly after their move to Detroit, which unlike Warren, Ohio, was an open shop environment.

I met a fellow decades ago who in the '40s, as a college student, worked a summer in the Packard factory.
Bottom line, it was a factory, albeit a well-ordered one, not Santa's workshop.

Packard was a sophisticated business set up to return serious profits to investors. Nothing wrong with that at all. Let's remember this, and that they weren't in business to leave us cars to play with and fawn over.

Meanwhile, tho' it's been over a year, we still await any SAE or other papers contrasting Packard's Saf-t-fleX IFS with the GM style used in the 1941-47 Clippers and beyond, and beginning in the R-R Silver Cloud/Bentley S-Series autumn, 1955. We know both are good. But it'd be interesting to see some hard engineering data, a report from a then current "Automotive Industries," something conclusive.

Or engineering papers comparing the four-main-bearing 473-ci Packard Twelve with the seven-main-bearing Pierce 462-ci V-12. We know the Packard had a more modern chassis, but what of the engines?

How about engineering papers --not buff hearsay or press releases -- from the day contrasting the 384-ci Chrysler Imperial, Packard and Pierce nine-main-bearing senior eights, which shared identical bore/stroke?

Or comparing the concurrent Packard with the excellent 1927-33 Stutz?

Most of us here gathered own Packards. We're sold. But let's not live in a vacuum or fantasyland.

Finally, tho' the Packard and Pierce V-12s outperformed them, the big Lincolns, KB,KA,K, of the '30s had the finest craftsmanship. Chrome plated brass interior
fittings where the topline Packards and Cadillacs used chrome plated pot metal, etc. Again, no sin here, just perspective.
BTW, simply to make an interesting thread more accessible to the casual viewer, shouldn't this discussion be on the Prewar or General forum?

Have replied to this topic before. I'm running Bridgestone R230 radials on '47 Super Clipper. Like the identical spec Yokohama LT radials Diamond Back charges extra to vulcanize a slightly too narrow "wide" whitewall, they are in the correct bias size of 7.00 x 15 for our cars, and many other 1941-on domestic automobiles. Google tread design and specs.

The first ride with them i was amazed not just at the
handling improvement, but the stopping ability. It's all
about wee performance tweaks of these fine road cars for me,
so i carry a couple extra pounds cold psi than what you'd
probably like or need: 46 psi. You can play around with
this.

The only drawback with such radials is that you'll be
tempted to take corners faster than you should, to "outdrive" your car.

Do NOT buy the metric sized tires you mention above.
They're for S(tupid) U(seless) V(ehicles) and will look
dorky. In fact, the 235s can rub the fender on hard
opposite lock. Again, they don't look right. The 205s
will be too small. Go with Bridgestone or Yokohama 7.00 x 15 LTs. Until the early aughts, Michelin also offered these with the same specs, but figured the market didn't justify continued production.

Bridgestone is a Japanese brand now. Yokohama Canadian.
Ironies abound. The raised black letters are impossible to read unless some car nerd crouches by your car to scrutinize the writing, and who cares what such losers think? If you don't pay Diamond Back to vulcanize a too narrow whitewall over this, you can always touch the characters with a die grinder.

Additionally, i like blackwalls because NO new cars in 1946-47 at any price range were delivered with whitewalls,
tho' a very few during the last month or so of the '47 model year may have. So with blackwall 7.00 x 15 you've got historical correctness on your side in the win-win bargain.

1941-47 Clippers are sleek, sophisticated automobiles,
which is why it's so sad seeing whitewalls, ostentatious hood ornaments that are a hangover from the dated box office poison prewar traditional bodies and already pretentious on those junior-based 1939-on cars (other than the leftover '38 Twelves).

Skip the gargoyle hood ornaments, curb feelers, go with
Bridgestone or Yokohama 7.00 x 15 LT radials. If you feel
compelled to do the suburban concours d' nonelegance conga
line, then order a set with too narrow whitewalls from
Diamond Back at a hefty premium for historical incorrectness.

Most wealthy folk in the day thought whitewalls, etc.
gauche, tacky. Leave that crapola to the '41 Chevy and Cadillac-ack-ack-ack-ack-ack-ack monkey see, monkey do crowd.
With blackwalls and less junk, you really "see" the car.

In the day, Packard retrofit windshield
washers, R-11 overdrives into earlier models. As motor oil
and lubricants improved, you'd use these. If you took
your '41-'47 Clipper into a Packard dealer for a new engine
after 1948 or in the early '50s, they'd install a 288 or 327.

Don't use tubes. Just make sure your wheels are smooth, the rivets tight.

These are a u t o m o b i l e s. Good road cars. And you're not butchering anything. Michelin offered radial tires beginning in 1946. Packards were worldclass automobiles.

I know '40s Packard and Cadillac owners running radials, several 1936-37 Cord drivers, a coupla S-Type Bentley Continentals, the latter with the same GM-type IFS and curb weight as our Clippers and 15-inch wheels, reported nothing but success. Yokohama and Bridgestone (and until a decade ago, Michelin) also offer 7.50 x 16 LT radials and i've talked with various delighted 1930s Cadillac and Packard owners so equipped.

Let the whining and yeah, buts begin.

A merry sixth day of Christmas, for those who also enjoy tradition, and an East Grand 2014 to all visiting this splendid site, tho' we remain puzzled why a simple
question on a recent post "356 finetuning" regarding timing
returned but one (1) response, and a question as to 1941-47 Clipper rear vent window removal not even that, while endless fairy castle and unicorn what ifs, radial rehash, extra carb titillation abound.

How much have you safely advanced your 356's timing from the shop manual's recommended 6 degrees BTDC? We figure 6 degrees BTDC a general safe figure to encompass the range of gasoline quality, production variance engine-by-engine, drivers' habits.

I'm looking for performance and fuel economy but not interested in any cowboy nonsense. We know to advance it until it just starts to ping when you crowd the engine in high gear at 25 or 30 mph. But curious what the number of degrees worked out to; 7, 8, 9 BTDC ?

I know enough to keep my foot out of the carburetor, not pull excessive manifold pressure. Such cars were oft called "bankers' hot rods" in the day, with easy reserve of power.
For what it's worth, i've jettisoned over 100 lbs. from my car, and i'm slim, travel light.

Have whatever essentially straight through original type muffler John Kepich sells for our cars, so no more back pressure than when she left East Grand.

My head's of course iron, but 7.5:1 compression instead of the factory 6.85:1, if that makes a difference.

Rebushed distributor, weights lubed, ball race oiled. NOS manifold heat riser thermostat spring so no impedence there either. I got John Kepich to reproduce the rust-prone cover out of stainless steel if you need one.

Also, i've seen gaps for our 10mm spark plugs listed from .025 to .028. What's best for performance and fuel economy more than smooth idle?

Since my car's a '47 Super, i'm most interested in hearing
from '42 and up owners, but perhaps that distinction's academic.

Thanks for any insight.

Call John Ulrich, 1 (510) 223-9587 in the San Fran/Oakland
East Bay area. julrich2847@att.net

John's owned for years both a '32 Light Eight roadster and
'40 120 coupe, has a 2,000-sq.ft. warehouse filled with 1928-47 Packard parts.

Tell him a black '47 Super Clipper in Walnut Creek sent you.

Meanwhile, any 1941-47 Clipper owners, please take a look
at my "Removing rear vent window from '47" posted Nov. 20th
page 2 of the General forum. Got it out and will get it
back in, but we're curious if Packard made some running
change. Post self-explanatory.

Also, my friend still needs a camshaft for his '30 Model 745 roadster. Even John Ulrich couldn't help us with that.
Please, if you have or know of anyone who has in their hands now such a camshaft or one that'll interchange, please PM me.
But do not tell us who "might" or suggest the usual nationally known names. We've been in all the clubs, know how to read. I've been Packarding as long as Jack Benny was alive, and my friend 55 years, both of us doing so on both coasts. Many thanks!

I'm posting this on the General instead of postwar 1946-54 forum merely as some 1941-42 Clipper owners might have some
experience. In order to replate the right rear vent window
frame in my '47 Super Clipper 2103, after removing the woodgrained garnish molding, i consulted the 1946-50 Packard Shop Manual's extensive body section, and saw both a long and short method. I also have the body manual for the 1942 Clippers, and looked at it, too.

In the 1946-50 body manual, the entire instructions:
"On the rear doors take out the window wing upper pivot screw and lock washer (easy enough), push the top of the window wing inward and lift it out of place."

Perhaps they're describing the similar 1948-50 bathtub
inner structure, as these cars are essentially reskinned
1941-47 Clippers, because the photos in the 1946-50 shop manual show a semi-circular dip to allow easy access to the lower vent window pivot nut and tensioning spring.

Because on my 2103 Super -- all four-door non-limo 1941-47 Clippers use the same body-- there's no dip, just an access panel, a square perhaps four by five or so inches predrilled for screws, which has no screws because
Packard or Briggs must've decided to simply tack weld it in place.

The 1942 Clipper body manual says "You will note there is a cover plate over the cut-out at top of door inside panel at the ventilating window lower pivot, take a pair of pliers and bend this plate down."

But, the cover plate's tack welded in place. To bend it back means breaking it free and then when the right rear
vent window is replaced, somehow bending it back in position----no easy feat, especially since it must be precise enough so that two of the ventilating window seven retaining screws can go back into the plate's bent top.

So, fellow 1947 Clipper sedan owners who've at some point had your right rear vent window out, how did you do this, what did you do, and how did you finish? I'm directing this to 1947 Clipper owners in case Packard/Briggs made some running production change, but any 1941-46 Clipper owners feel free to weigh in, because i don't know when this change was made, or if the 1942 body manual is as
out of touch as it's clumsy prose suggests. You'd think
a company of Packard's stature might've had at least one literate pair of eyes proof the above 1942 instructions so
there'd be a period after pivot and "Take a pair of pliers..." would be a new sentence.

Thanks for any and all easy insight, and i'm sure i'm not the only Clipper owner who'd welcome any crisp, high-contrast photos of what you did.

Just a lighthearted question, and the answer doesn't have to
make the least sense. The car you'd otherwise have doesn't
even have to be in the same idiom, class, or be of quality near Packard, though it might be. Some of us buy for
style and/or engineering. A certain look, reputation,
because we knew the background of a particular car. Various
and sundry reasons. Just be truthful.

For example, some of us might have another make vintage/classic luxe car. Or something entirely else.
In my case, after two Packards, I was on my way to an Austin-Healey 3000 when, long story short, i wound up with the '47 Super i've had since 1986.


So, what would you have if you didn't have your Packard?