A Packard friend owning a car similar to my '47 Super wondering if his gas consumption was on par prompts me to pose this larger discussion. Sure now, we know Packards weren't "economy" cars, but optimum fuel economy is a sign of mechanical health and smart driving.
Packard ads junior and senior extolled thrift of operation for their class, even exceeding lesser machines.
Buick, hardly a paragon of fuel sipping, marketed their rare, no-cost 3.6:1 cog available only in the Century and Roadmaster on the basic wheelbase beginning 1939 as the "economy rear axle."

A 4,375-lb. (curb weight), '51 Lincoln, 121-inch wb. sedan, with the 331-ci flathead V-8 truck engine used in 1949-51 Lincolns, won its class and the Sweepstakes award in the 1950 & '51 Mobilgas Economy Run, running a 3.31 rear axle and overdrive for a final drive ratio of 2.39 overall, with average mileage over nearly 1,000 miles of 25.448 mpg.
Even after Chrysler complained and the above Lincoln was impounded and torn down after the race, it was shown to be 100% stock, unmodified.

So, we'd love to hear of real world gas mileage for various Packards; for me, specifically, the 356, the One-Twenty, both traditional bodies and Clipper variants, and the 473-ci later Twelves. Please tell us your axle ratio, body style, curb weight, and whether you have overdrive, and any deviations from factory stock.

I'll start the ball rolling by recounting 31 years ago after topping off the gastank of my '40 120 sedan, overdrive but with 4.09 non-overdrive axle in lieu of factory 4.36 in OD cars, running Denman bias plies inflated to 32 psi cold pressure, returning 22.5 mpg, much of that at speeds of 60-65 on largely level East Bay Area (corporate 'burbs east of San Fran/Oakland) freeways, driving with a light foot, the usual attention.

My friend with a '47 Custom Clipper, overdrive and factory 4.09 axle, reports not being able to best 15mpg no matter what he does, asked if that was acceptable for our cars. I assured him he was in tall cotton, as my '47 Super, overdrive with the taller non-overdrive 3.92 rear cog, 2.82:1 overall vs. his factory 2.95, well-inflated 7.00 x 15 bias sized Bridgestone radials, can't get out of the low teens downhill with a tail wind, despite tuned on the button, Carter WDO-531S rebuilt according to Hoyle by a master mechanic who worked in Packard and Hudson garages since leaving Pacific theater of War II where he ran motor pools, he knowing all the arcane service bulletins over the decades, every trick.

Friends with late '30s Twelves say they've never gotten better'n single digit mpg, which may simply come with that territory, even as our above cars, and so be it, as they're only driven once in a blue moon for pleasure cruises.

So, it'd be interesting to hear from any of y'all who've checked your fuel mileage at some point in various Packards. But please, p l e a s e , spare us any exaggeration, or chest-thumping real men don't care about the environment/fuel economy, if you can't afford the gas, yadda, yadda; all that faux macho Car & Driver/Fox "News" ecoweenie jazz.

As Sgt. Joe Friday respectfully requested,

"Just the facts, ma'am."

Thanks, but i know how to Google. Be there a single 356 soul amongst the here gathered who already HAS such an alternator mounted on their 1940-50 356, who can supply/refer me with/to the ready-to-mount brackets?

Purists avert thy eyes. I've long since made my authenticity bones and have no interest in altering my car,
but am interested in going to a 6-volt positive-ground alternator IF there's already one at reasonable cost that comes with the correct Super-8 356 pulley and brackets. Am not interesed in a project having other interests and a life outside the garage.
Seem to recall seeing such for sale a decade ago in Hemmings, somewhere.

My correct AutoLite generator works fine, but as i've already pared nearly 100 lbs. from my '47 Super Clipper, wouldn't mind getting rid of another 30 or so, especially from the front end, as these cars even in the best shape naturally plow a bit. An old retired mechanic told me many six-volt taxis used alternators back in the '50s, and that he had a '60 GMC tow truck with a 6-volt alternator back in the day, so that'll have to serve as enough PC; Packard Correctness for me.

So, anyone have one, know of a source? Again, i don't want to fuss with making my own brackets and fooling with pulley. A friend has a 6-volt alternator in one of his Cords, but it's
a good idea on those cars simply as low voltage hampers the electro-mechanical Bendix pre-select transmission at idle, this being a four-speed version of the Bendix "Electric Hand" first seen in '35 Hudsons.

Thanks for any help, insight. But please, no whining about authenticity. You're preaching to the choir. I want something bolt in, simple, E-Z. My Cord friend paid $120 for his 6-volt alternator two or three years ago, which seems reasonable. In addition to the generator in my car, which i want to keep, i have two good, complete 356 AutoLite generators with pulleys for trade, etc. for the above offered as cores.

Thank you as always, Drs. O'Dyneto & Cole. All of us using this splendid site owe you two for your considerable knowledge readily shared. It occurred to me this was the case, but my friend insisted it was in Turnquist's 1966 book, which he misplaced, and so thought a concise figure was available. I'll forward him your comments.

This same fellow still has the sound, solid, original '38 Twelve victoria he's owned since the late '50s. A fellow ex-NYer, when he and his wife were still kids, they used to drive into Manhattan from Long Island, this being 1958-59, park casually on the street, go inside to see a movie. He recalled taking it to a greater NYC CCCA meet in those years, where the usual annoying clubbies minced over to chide them for bringing such a late-model Packard, with its inelegant pontoon fenders, instead of the 1933-34 "Golden Era's" clamshells.

He's selling his second, and perhaps last Duesenberg at the upcoming Barrett-Jackson Scottsdale auction next weekend, a LWB '34 Model J Murphy Custom Beverly sedan. Can only hope my efforts to remind him how august the Packard Twelve truly was and is in the '30s heavy iron pantheon will help him detox from the Duesenberg Kool Aid he drank his entire life.

Long story short: The business about a young Enzo Ferrari being inspired to create his first diminutive V-12 in 1947 by Packard's Twin-Six of the teens is nonsense. Ferrari was mightily inspired by the later Packard Twelves of the '30s, but as Packard was still selling a few expensive cars in the '50s and seen as competition for some of his wealthy customers, was advised to keep that respect to himself.

W.O. Bentley, during the years of his Speed Six and Eight-Liter Cricklewood namesakes, had nothing but open respect for Packard. Ettore Bugatti preferred his Packard for business trips.

The last time i saw his '38 Twelve run was 1978, when, after sitting some time, with naught but a wee VW group one battery, it came readily to life, and drove like a steam turbine.

An old friend has a chance to buy back the '30 Model 745 roadster he long ago owned, and wondered how many of these Packard built. I know total '30 Model 745 production was 1,789 cars. But, does anyone know how many 745 roadsters were produced?

Many thanks.

Dr. O'Dyneto's, and Dr. Cole's, advice has always been matchless, so good enough for me, and thank you, sir(s).
I just wish i knew why this gear oil fright kept rearing its persistent lil' haid. The zinc malarkey i can see, even the silicone DOT 5 brake fluid dire predictions, since most people don't bother to follow directions and always want to blame any mechanical malaise in worn out old cars on the last elixir used.

Well, Dr O'D, you and i've been using precisely the same oil and weight in our transmissions and pumpkins for as long. I'd say knock on wood, but your well-tended '34 has wood, my '47 not a stick. No--- wait. There's a small piece in the rear seat foldown armrest.

But back to the cooling system saga, the posters above and below are right as rain about cooling systems rusting quickly if left empty. Better to keep them filled at all times, tho'
again, i'd never, ever use antifreeze unless 1, the car might be exposed to a hard freeze, or 2, it has air conditioning, as above.

Thank you, Dr. Cole. 140 weight might be a wee thick for us in the mild greater SF/Oakland Bay Area. Meanwhile, as said, everyone i know is running the usual Pennzoil/Kendall/other major brand GL 5-6 stuff, and i haven't heard any horror stories, including a coupla longtime mechanics who've been overhauling transmissions since the '50s. In fact, no one had the least concern 'til some alarmist bit in Skinned Knuckles from the same characters who bought into the fire in a crowded theater zinc motor oil nonsense.

As posted here months ago, the longtime Kendall tech i spoke with showed me that, for example, the Kendall GT1 10W/30 i use has the SAME zinc level as in the '70s, and we heard no such nonsense back then. The non-problem began when increased ZDDP levels started harming catalytic convertors, so the major oil companies dialed it back to '70s levels.

But all the downhome hotrod black helicopters contingent heard is "zinc being reduced." About that time, a couple vociferous codgers in the 1941 Cadillac Club of America, formerly the CCCA, reported problems with Cadillac's chintzy bronze timing gear in their 346 flathead V-8s, coincidentally after having just been rebuilt. So, as with silicone DOT-5 brake fluid, gasoline, it's always easier to blame the big, bad oil companies, etc. than take a look at the work recently performed.
BTW, the Kendall tech himself owns a well-tweaked '60s Camaro with a flat cam engine, and knows the fellow who developed the 15W/40 "Classic Car Motor Oil" marketed by the Indiana region of the CCCA. The Kendall tech freely admitted that Kendall sold an unnecessary oil with heightened zinc today simply as "....any company that wants to stay in business has to provide people with what they think they need or want."

Meanwhile, we're lucky in that those of us in the Bay Area served by "EBMUD (East Bay Municipal Utility District)" have, along with NYC receiving soft, clean water from the Adirondacks, two of the best, softest water supplies in the nation, our water coming down from Sierra snowmelt.

The downside is the Bay Area is overpopulated HELL, with neverending torrents of twits in SUVs racing to Starbucks and the mall, so if any of you are thinking of moving here, do yourselves a favor and stay put. The only time you can enjoy your Packard on the road is at the crack of dawn on a major holiday like Christmas, New Year's, Thankgsiving, or Stupor Bowl Sunday, i kid you not.

I think the key is soft water, regardless its source.

So, GL-5/6, much ado about nothing?

Happy New Year and Merry Ninth Day of Christmas.

Mr. Greene, in the parlor, with a candlestick holder-- Another adviso against using distilled water in automotive cooling systems was issued circa 1989-90 by Mercedes-Benz, to all their service departments, for the same reason. Am only trying to pass along the best info we have to a newbie as we're discussing cooling systems in general, with a possible eye toward preserving our wheeled survivors. Am not interested in debating quantified chemistry.
For more discussion, visit www.no-rosion.com, the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg Club's tech forum.
Caution: Su8overdrive takes evolution over intelligent design, too.

I bow as always to Drs. Cole and O'Dyneto whelming knowledge of our cars stem to stern, but Click and Clack and dozens of others have issued the same warning about antifreeze, pets, kids.

Long as we're wonking, a lifelong pilot/machinist/aero and auto mechanic friend says a Chevron tech recently told him to only use GL-1 gear lube in pre- '60s or so transmissions with yellow metal, as the sulfur in all else eats brass, bronze. I'd thought we'd exhausted this subject, but it would be nice if anyone could conclusively drive a stake through this vampire's heart once and for all for the sake of peace of mind, and not disintegrating our R-9/R-11 transmissions.

Was looking at one of my spare overdrives for the above transmissions t'other day, remarking that it's nearly as big and heavy as the entire manual transmission i helped a friend stuff back in his '41 Cad drophead after he fixed a leak. So i'm sure most of us would rather not have to rebuild our gearboxes, esp. with the hassle of removing that cross member, etc. Hell's bells, a Hudson transmission of the era weighs but 35 lbs.

Everyone in my wide circle of all manner of barouches from both sides of the Atlantic 1930s throgh '60s; Cords, Cads, Ferraris, numerous Packards, has been rolling along happily with GL-5/6 these past decades with nary a report of sulfur/acid damage.

Happy New Year; joy, peace, health, serenity to us all, our wheeled alter egos, their cooling systems, and yellow metal.

The above gents give good advice, and i agree especially with Mssrs. Bumble, post # 4 above--tho' it's better to never start an engine unless you're going to drive 20 miles and get the oil hot enough to avoid sludge, varnish and carbonic acid--- and Cole, #9. A car has to be exposed to two consecutive nights of a hard freeze, 30 or below, to risk a cracked block, but why take chances? The radiator will expand slightly, but if cold enough, and the slush hardens, your block won't give.
Antifreeze is wretched stuff, toxic, but sweet and deadly to small children and pets. It also leaves a film on cooling system passages inhibiting heat transfer, according to a Chrysler engineeer writing in the Auburn-Cord-Duesenberg newsletter years ago, and breaks down after two years even in an unopened jug. Conventional green antifreeze should be drained and replaced every two years.

But unless you live in Siberia or Duluth, you don't need a 50-50 mix. Check the chart on the jug for the lowest expected temperature in your region. And use ONLY soft water, never distilled, which is ion-hungry and leaches minerals, like solder, from your cooling system.

Thankfully, in the greater SF/Oakland Bay Area, we can and do get by without antifreeze, just soft water and a quality rust and corrosion inhibitor like www.no-rosion.com which i'm a big fan of and if you order some tell Jay Ross a black '47 Super Clipper in Walnut Creek sent you. When i find a good product for our survivors from a company that goes the extra mile, i believe in spreading the word, otherwise we're stuck with naught but generic crap for modern Kleenex cars. Running straight water also lets you advance your timing another notch for performance and fuel economy.

Any car will run cooler with just straight water and a quality rust inhibitor, than with antifreeze, all else being equal. Doing so is vital in race cars with their tiny frontal area, tho' they may put a teaspoon of the stuff in their system so they can get away with their antifreeze sponsor decal.

If your friend's car's been neglected awhile, it can't hurt to pour a couple pints of kerosene and two pounds of Arm & Hammer washing soda (NOT baking soda!) in the cooling system, drive for a dozen miles, then flush with a garden hose. Run a coat hangar or piece of welding rod in the opened drain plug at the left rear of the block to get any loose sediment out. If you suspect decades of deferred maintenance, he may have to remove the radiator hoses, thermostat and back flush away.

You didn't mention which model your friend's Packard is.
If it's been awhile, it's a good idea to check cylinder head torque warm if iron, cold if aluminum, and the manifold bolts and nuts. This was part of a complete tune up in the day.

Your friend sounds like a newbie, so assure him so long as he keeps oil and water in his lubed, tuned Packard and regardless of its thorough engineering, drives it like the old car it is, not a Taurus, Camry or Accord, he'll be able to enjoy it for perpetuity.

For newer cars with air conditioning, even in Scottsdale or LA in August, you need to use 15% antifreeze merely to keep the heater core from freezing.

To a grand, healthy, relaxed 2013 to all here gathered on the finest automotive website for the world's consistently finest production car, 100 years since Packard's fabled 525-ci Six was renamed the Model 48 for its third year, a model that as much as any cemented the Company's name in the automotive firmament. And why aren't we hearing from any 1911-15 Six owners?

Thank YOU, Kev, for launching,maintaining PackardInfo. No finer automotive site exists on either side of the Atlantic.
We never fail to be pleasantly surprised by the depth and breadth of knowledge here, and the consistent geniality, cordiality, even when---just among ourselves--- we share our divergent Packard tastes.

A fitting site for the crown jewel of Detroit's, and the international motoring industry's once finest manufacturing machine shop.

For decades, Jay Fisher has been offering lovely, faithful, reproduction rear view mirrors for various Classic and vintage cars, the 1941-48 Packard (first year tub used the same style) swan neck belt moulding rear view mirrors. Haven't seen one of his ads in awhile, but:

JAY M. FISHER
Acken Drive 4/B
Clark, NJ 07066
732-388-6442