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Board index » All Posts (ironhead.chris)




Re: Manual brake conversion
#1
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Chris R
Quote:

HH56 wrote:
Question I have is where are you going to mount and what type pedal? If there is enough room and you mount in the engine compt down toward the original location and adapt to use the bottom of the original PB pedal that will be 1:1 and converted by the new mechanism to 4:1. If you mount up higher near the air vent and connect to the pedal arm that might not provide enough stroke the way the stock pedal assy is suspended. If you install the 55 manual pedal and mount under the floor that will be around 6:1 and you would not need the extra linkage in the new bracket.


You're right. I keep flip flopping around trying to get to the bottom of this. Really, the best way to approach this is with the master under the floor. Assisted or unassisted, that arrangement will provide the best leverage.

I'll keep moving forward with this setup and see what I can figure out.


Quote:

JeromeSolberg wrote:
You can think of the master cylinder/slave cylinder relationship as a lever, with the lever ratio being the ratio of the areas. The smaller the area, the larger the pressure, but you have to make that up with a long stroke, just like in a long lever arm.
The Bendix Treadle-Vac has a 0.652" (some say 0.655") bore diameter, with a very long stroke, from what I can measure around 3". This is what allowed it to work with the small diameter vacuum booster, and be (marginally) acceptable in the case one lost vacuum.

I tried a Ford Courier dual master cylinder with it's 7" booster. It has a 3/4" bore size. The 7" booster barely fit down there, but all in all the installation looked great. I put some pictures up somewhere on another thread, I need to find it.

However, the pressure ratio is proportional to the square of the bore diameter (area=pi D^2/4) that means it has a pressure ratio of (0.655/0.75)^2 which comes out to about 75% of the original brake pressure.

It was NOT ENOUGH! I drove it and I had to push HARD on the pedal, and my neighbor was of the opinion it was not safe.

I have recently evaluated using the Wildwood TM1 externally mounted dual master cylinder. It has a 0.625" bore, but only a 1.3" stroke, so I don't think it would be acceptable, though I have thought about it.

Wilwood TM1 Master Cylinder, 0.625" bore


Yeah, with the placement of the original setup, and the 1:1 ratio, I think its pretty much impossible to get something to work safely and correctly.

Even for the people that have put a small booster where the original setup was, if vacuum vanishes, they're going to be in a hard place.


Quote:

JWL wrote:
May be a bit off topic, but is anyone familiar with brake master cylinders being boosted by the power steering pump? I recall seeing one of these boosters being installed on one of the car restoration programs. Maybe it was on one of the Restoration Garage episodes? One of these boosters may solve the space problem if the car already has power steering.


There was actually a video on Youtube where a 53 was up on a 2 post lift and the tech was showing the brake setup that they had installed for the customer. It was a GM hydroboost mounted under the floor and was tied into the factory power steering pump. It looked like it was very nicely done. I've tried looking for the video recently but I can't seem to find it for the life of me. If I do, I'll post it here.

EDIT: I found the video.

https://transmissionadapters.com/blogs ... -1953-packard-convertible

Is Glen Kohouts a member here?

-Chris

Posted on: 5/4 9:31
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#2
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Chris R
Quote:

HH56 wrote:
That appears to be the Electroboost system and a few have been installed on 55-6 models at the factory location and 1:1 ratio with the boost power set near maximum. I believe those master cylinders were all 1". If you go that route on a 53 you would need to convert to 12v and I cannot help but wonder with the low ratio about how well the brakes work if the boost unit failed. To the best of my knowledge no one using the 1:1 ratio has tried disconnecting power to simulate a failure or if they have, did not post the result.

I and several others would much like to see what would happen with a 3/4" or smaller cylinder at the 1:1 ratio. I don't remember the exact ram size in the BTV but think it is around 5/8". It can have a longer almost 4" stroke to displace or force fluid out of the cylinder in sufficient volume to fill the cylinders whereas a modern master cylinder has a comparatively short stroke large diameter piston and quickly pushes a fair amount of fluid ahead of the piston. If the brake shoes are adjusted properly not much volume is needed but discs and poor adjustment would need more. That is where the safety margin question of how much stroke for the reduced diameter cylinder is available to move the equivalent amount of fluid. Most modern boosters and cylinders seem to have a max stroke no more than about 1 1/2 - 2 inches


I don't want to go with the 12v Electroboost setup. If you look at the pictures I attached in my last message, you can see that they have a mechanism between their Electroboost master and the floorboard. That mechanism changes the 1:1 ratio to 4:1.

When I asked if I could use just that mechanism with a manual master cylinder, he said I wouldn't need to change the ratio. He said the stock 1:1 ratio would be fine with a manual master cylinder if I change the master bore size to account for the 1:1 ratio.

-Chris

Posted on: 4/30 15:54
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#3
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Chris R
So, I've been doing some research on getting rid of this Treadle-Vac setup and ran into an article on lowrider.com of all places. It details a disk brake conversion on what looks to be an old Pontiac with the same setup as our cars.

The master cylinder setup is the same unit that Howard mentioned previously. In the attached images, you can see a pivot type mechanism that looks to change the ratio away from 1:1. So, I got to thinkin, I wonder if we could use just that mechanism with a manual dual circuit master cylinder and make everything really easy.

I gave them a call and ran everything by them, the gentleman on the phone confirmed that the piece I'm referring to maintains a 4:1 ratio. He then went on to tell me that I didn't need that part if I went with a manual master cylinder. He said that ratio was only needed with a power assisted setup, and that the 1:1 would be fine for a manual master.

I asked him how it would be possible with the 1:1 ratio. He went on to say that if you find the right master with the right bore size, it wouldn't be an issue. I did go on to ask him if that part was available for purchase anyway, and he said it is and he "thinks" its around $160.

What do you guys think? Is retaining a 1:1 ratio with a manual master possible if we change to a different bore size?

-Chris

Attach file:



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png  ABS Power Brakes 2.png (4,559.83 KB)
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png  ABS Power Brakes 3.png (1,391.52 KB)
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png  ABS Power Brakes 4.png (1,617.39 KB)
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Posted on: 4/30 15:02
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WTB: Manual brake parts from a 55+ torsion level car
#4
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Chris R
Hello all,

I'm looking to convert my 53 convertible to manual brakes. Does anyone have the pedal arm, pivot bolt and related parts (excluding ms) from a manual brake 55+ torsion level car for sale?

Thank you,

-Chris

Posted on: 4/30 13:46
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#5
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Chris R
Quote:

HH56 wrote:
Can't see the bottom of the brake pedal very well to say for sure which year it is but with the rod extending backward you are probably correct at 55-6 You can compare pedals in the parts manuals. Plates 62-63 in the 51-4 manual and plate 13C in the 55-6.


Hey Howard,

Yeah, it is kind of hard to see in the pictures. I've reattached the one where its easiest to see, but circled the area in red. It's still really dark but hopefully it helps.

It looks as though the plate is underneath the pivot area which I believe would push backwards if the pedal was pushed forwards.

I imagine the 52-54 plate is above the pivot point which would push forward as the pedal was pushed forward.

Thank you for the part numbers. I'll have to continue to do some digging.

-Chris

Attach file:



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Posted on: 4/28 10:34
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#6
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Chris R
So, I got under there yesterday and had a look. I think the reason the aftermarket pedal hasn't been done is because it would be very difficult.

The issue is space and the triangulated frame section in that area. The brake pedal mounts right between it and its very tight.

I found the attached images from an old ebay listing. You can kinda see what I'm talking about. Keep in mind, the frame wall that the linkage passes through has been cut away and is missing.

I think my best bet at this point is to find a 55+ torsion setup and go from there. Hopefully finding these parts isn't super difficult.

EDIT: I just realized that the tags in the images say 52-54, but the brake linkage is pointing towards the rear and the pedal tab that the linkage mounts to is on the bottom. I'm guessing this was really a 55+ torsion setup?

-Chris

Attach file:



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Posted on: 4/28 9:40
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#7
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Just can't stay away

Chris R
Quote:

HH56 wrote:
Quote:
The plan is to mount a modern booster and dual circuit master under the floor like hotrodders do. In order to achieve this, I need the rod going towards the back of the car, not the front.

This was discussed a few years ago during some of the BTV replacement threads but don't recall any posts of someone ever trying it. In addition to modifying the original pedal there was also some thought of using a modern weld or bolt in hot rodder pedal and booster assy under the car instead of trying to modify or source another pedal and then still need to do the other mods. http://www.abspowerbrake.com/maincatalog_frameset038.html

In addition to TL clearance issues on 55-6 models another issue that caused some concern with the under floor setup is that by the time the assy is put together most of the modern boosters capable of stopping Packard's weight will have a height of 8" or more. The 51 and later frame rails are only around 5 1/2 or 6" high so unless some accommodation is made in the floor pan to accommodate the diameter and could be hidden under the seat it would mean a portion of the booster will hang under the frame unprotected and vulnerable to road debris. On that ABS page there is a mini booster unit at 6" but the question on that unit was the small booster strong enough to stop a 2 ton car.


Thanks Howard! I hadn't even thought about the clearance issues involved with mounting a booster under the floor. Having something come up and take out the brakes definitely wouldn't be good.

So, as of right now, it sounding more and more like just doing manual brakes might be the best choice.

The biggest issue that I see right now is mounting the pedal its self. On these cars the manual pedal mounted right between that "V" section of the frame. Using the factory parts would be nice because everything would just bolt into place. The rod and master setup would be easy to add afterwards.

I'll get under the car today and see exactly what I'm dealing with in regards to room.

Thanks again!

-Chris

Posted on: 4/27 12:56
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#8
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Chris R
Quote:

Ross wrote:
MC was mounted just behind the steering gear on all manual brake cars through 56 unless it was a Torsion Level car with manual brakes. On those it was mounted under the floor because of clearance problems with the bars.


Thank you Ross, that clears up a lot. I saw some manual masters were mounted both ways but thought the under the floor layout was with manual trans vehicles.

The plan is to mount a modern booster and dual circuit master under the floor like hotrodders do. In order to achieve this, I need the rod going towards the back of the car, not the front.

So, for what I'm trying to do, I think the 55+ manual setup would be best.

Does anyone know if the 55+ pedal setup would bolt onto a 54- frame?

I suppose I could always modify the bottom of a 54- pedal to make this work as well.

What do you guys think?

-Chris


Quote:

JWL wrote:
Chris, I had Ross Miller convert the Easamatic brake system on my 55 Clipper (non Torsion Level) to a conventional single master cylinder. All parts (pedal, cylinder, etc.) were from a pre-55 Packard. I was most pleased with the performance, smooth and efficient without much pedal pressure needed. Many non power brake Packard parts out there. I think you will like the change.


Thanks for the reply JWL. I have thought about going with only manual brakes, but aside from trying to get rid of the Treadle-Vac, I'm trying to upgrade to a dual circuit master cylinder.

As of now, it sounds like the only way I'm going to achieve this, is by mounting it under the floor like the 55+ cars. If I'm going to have to go through all that just to mount the dual circuit, I'm thinking adding a booster won't be too much more work.

With that being said, I thank you for your input because I haven't driven a Packard with manual brakes and was under the impression that it wouldn't be a pleasant experience. After your reply, if I can't make the booster work, I won't worry about it too much.

Thanks again!

-Chris

Posted on: 4/27 11:37
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Re: Manual brake conversion
#9
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Chris R
Still doing some research on this.

It appears that the manual master cylinder was mounted in front of the firewall down low on Ultramatic cars, and mounted behind the firewall underneath the floor on cars with a manual transmission.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thank you,

-Chris

Posted on: 4/25 3:07
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Posted in wrong area - Please delete
#10
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Chris R
Posted in wrong area - Please delete

Posted on: 4/25 0:22
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