In order to accurately advise you, we need more information.

Merely telling us what YEAR your Packard is dosnt help us.

During 1938 production, the Packard Motor Car Company produced vastly different products for different price ranges. The series of these cars were so different from each other (NO interchangeability of parts) that they may as well have been from different different manufacturers (the two exceptions were the fixtures for the dome lights and the door handles - which were the same thru-out 1938 production).

So - we need to know which MODEL and which SERIES your particular car is. For example, is it a six cylinder, or an eight cyl. If it has 8 cyls., is it a "Packard Eight" or is it a Packard Super Eight? Or is it a Packard Twelve. Once we get the series established, then you will have a choice, depending on whether the original owner paid extra for "delux" equipment. For example, different types of fabric and trim were offered.

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I feel so sorry for the guy - he obviously is not getting what he is entitled to out of that car.

As you point out, depressing the clutch would isolate the transmission and clutch disc.

Wouldn't resolve the question as to what may have been fouled up on either the clutch plate or flywheel.

Sad to report I have seen more than one Packard crankshaft butchered / ruined by well-meaning but mis-informed machine shops. A "pounded out" crankshaft on a "Senior" Packard is not that unusual - overly worn out rod bearings, coupled with all manner of abuse, will do that.

Obviously, new connecting rod bearings cannot be fitted; are of no use unless the crankshaft journal is restored to "at spec" for roundness.

As you are aware, "Senior" Packard crankshafts (both EIGHT, SUPER EIGHT and TWELVE have huge counter-weights fastened with #8 bolts - these bolts must be ground out to get the counter-weights off the shaft. Because the counter-weights are so huge, over-lapping a portion of the crankshaft "journal" today's crank grinders cant get in to re-surface the journal until those counter-weights are removed. A visual inspection would, as you infer, would only disclose the most obvious "butchering".

Yeah - this guy's symptoms, not that he is being clear, dosnt sound good - now that we have a more accurate description of the symtoms, I cannot recommend driving that thing at all until this is resolved.

I have a bad feeling this will not be resolved without a complete tear-down and re-balancing of all of the engine's components. Wish I had better news.

It frankly infuriates me when I hear about a Packard of ANY series that dosnt deliver what Packard cars are so famous for...(again, if they havnt been brutalized.)

AH - NOW we are getting somewhere.

Seems you have ruled out un-even firing.

You are now telling us that you found that revving the motor up caused you to fear it might be damaged from the shaking. You clearly have some kind of motor balance/alignment problem.

You indicate you do not have any receipts to show us what shop did what work on what assemblies or sub-assemblies. Not good.

I would "drop" the oil pan to see if the counter-weights were in their proper places - maybe someone, recognizing that they have to come off to properly grind a pre-war Packard crank-shaft, messed up something there? (lack-of-balance of the rotating mass of the engine (weight of pistons, rods, etc...if off, would certainly cause vibration, but not as severe as you are now describing)

If all looks well, I would "drop" the transmission, checking the trans. input shaft & flywheel "pilot" bearing for possible "out of round" conditions that could throw the clutch disc "off center". Then check the clutch disc, plate, and flywheel for alighment and balance (I have seen people butcher these assemblies so completely that they are way off center).

Your observations are not consistent. In your earlier post, you tell us the vibration is at 20, "becomes unnoticeable at 50".

In a later post you tell us it is a "mild shake" that "continues to increase with rpm".

Your second observation is more consistent with an out-of-balance/alignment condition that could be anywhere from the "nose to the tail" of your engine-clutch-drive-line.

Given the discrepancies in your observations, I cannot help you.

There is nothing to be embarssed about in not being an "expert" about diagnosing mechanical disorders. All of us have some area in life experiences where we are ignorant of what to do. NO shame in that!

I STRONGLY recommend you transport your vehicle to a restoration shop that has a HISTORY AND REPUTATION for solving malfunction vibration issues with pre-war Packards. They are out there. If you would tell us where you are located, we may be able to give you some suggestions.

A "list of things done...stated dollar value... but no actual receipts"....?

Not good ! Inability to confirm which shop did what, means all I can do is give you some wild guesses!

I would not focus on an engine out-of-balance - such as mis-matched pistons, con-rods, goofing up the crankshaft "counter-weights", flywheel - clutch disc, etc. ANy balance issue in those areas gets worse with rpm. You'd know it - pretty durn obvious.

I'd start with the drive shaft & U joints. Fortunately, your car used front & rear U-joints in a size that is avail. brand new today. A "harmonic" caused by a slightly bent, out-of-round, out of balance drive shaft would be a good place to start.

Remove that from the equation first - then we can discuss more esoteric (and expensive ! ) ideas...!

wow - would love to have a pair of those switches !

Wow - thanks for the info - you are obviously more familiar with the pre 1932 cars and their literature than I am.

Yes, of course the earlier cars with UPDRAFT carbs. had a manifold layout so it was then practical ( with no "down-draft" style intake manifold, carb., etc. in the way) to use a exhaust manifold "muff" for cabin heating. Never saw one on a 20's era Packard myself. New to me - thanks again!

( Side note - You may be aware of my prejudice that all Packards that do not have red closineau hub-cap emblems that say "PACKARD TWELVE" should be immediately shredded and sent to Japan where they can be made into something useful.....! )

We disagree on the Pines issue. Again, given the outstanding over-engineering of Packard cooling systems, I think you are wrong - no way in the world a PROPERLY MAINTAINED Packard cooling system can warm up as fast as blocking off the water flow at the cyl. head, ( as is universal in modern practice for well over half a century).

A list of present era cars with the Pines system compared to the modern practice of "pellet" types that cut off the flow of water at the cyl. head says it all! Again, my prejudice...the Pines Winterfront.....inefficient, costly, unnecessary.

Sorry, no practical way of complying with the request for a photo behind my own dash - too stuffed with wiring to make head-or-tail out of it.

As another side-note, I never understood the psychology of most of the pre-war Packard buyers. The guy who ordered mine new, paid extra for a number of fairly expensive options, including the factory radio. Yet he wouldn't shell out for the outstanding factory-installed heating system! Cant figure that out.

I am the second owner; and I like my creature-comfort - so yes, I installed a conventional "after-market" style "Packard" water-type heater bolted to the firewall, with a switch mounted UNDER the dash. Yeah..I know..I SHOULD have set it up so the "factory" provision for lighting indicators built into the dash works with the under-dash heater switch...!

Yes, some modern "big rig" diesels do have radiator shutters, and for good reason - diesels, being more efficient than gas motors, turn a greater proportion of the energy in fuel into mechanical energy, with less lost as heat. Even with modern "pellet" type thermostats, the air-flow coming in thru the radiator opening on big diesels has to be cut off on very cold days, for a number of reasons not relevant to our discussion regarding Packard cars.

Bottom line - my experience with Packard cooling systems....if you can get ANY Packard product to warm up quickly with only a Pines system to restrict the air flowing thru the radiator, you've got one badly maintained Packard!

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Owen_Dyneto wrote:
There were no longer any hot air "manifold-type" heaters offered that late in the game. There was however the very highly regarded Kelch hot air heater which drew it's heat from a stainless steel heat exchanger on the exhaust header pipe, and it was available in both the junior and senior series.
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Ha - you got me - I apologize - I used the wrong terminology. We are both talking about the same thing! Yes, I do remember your article - have that issue somewhere.

Well...I partially take back my apology - I don't recall ever hearing the term "Kelch" until I saw your article ! I presume that is the actual technical name the manufacturer used for his product - never saw that name used in any Packard literature that I have access to.

As you point out in your article, it was superior to hot water heaters, in that it provided cabin heat almost instantly.

Of course there was no such thing in that era as an actual manifold heater, nor is there such a thing in any aircraft I am familiar with. I just used that as a "generic" term; of course the "Kelch" went on after the "header" pipe flange. ( on my aircraft, there is a "wrap" around the muffler, so that outside air hits the header pipe to be heated before it enters the cabin).

Which leads me to a somewhat related question nobody has ever explained to me. What in #$$*$#@ were the engineers thinking in coming up with radiator shutters ( the "PINES WINTERFRONT" system )?

At some point in time, engineers figured out that the worst thing you can do to a motor is start it when it is cold, and the second worst thing you can do, is run it until it reaches operating temp.

Of course it is and has been universal practice for more than half a century to use a "pellet" type thermostat to shut off the water flow until it warms up.

At some point in time in the early years, they made the cylinder head with a provision for mounting a "modern style" thermostat to block the flow of water until it was hot.

Then - all of a sudden the Pines system starts showing up. Given the outstanding cooling systems of Packard products, now we have to wait till all the water in both the motor block and radiator are warm - takes much longer than if they'd left well-enough alone and continued to use "water shut-off" / "pellet" type thermostats now in universal use.

Yeah - the Pines system is pretty slick - I've left mine operational, but have modern "water shut-off" types to insure fast warm up.

So - who has any ideas as to why a system as goofy, expensive to manufacture and as inefficent as the Pines/shutter deal stayed in use clear to the end of production with the start of the 2nd World War ?

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You would not be the first one who damaged or ruined a recalcitrant internal combustion engine with starter fluid.

I can give you any number of potential horror stories as to what may have happened - anywhere from blowing loose some carbon that is temporarily lodged under a couple of valves, to cracking a ring, breaking a ring-land, or even "holing" a piston.

By the early 1930's, American autos were pretty durn reliable, hot or cold. Might take a bit of cranking on a very VERY cold morning, but ANY car of that era was properly designed to start NOW. WIth today's "high volatility fuels, the various "back-yard remedies" of the old days should be completely unnecessary.

Simple fact is, years of neglect, combined with poor maintainence (how many folks these days know how to properly gap a plug, set timing, go thru a carbuerator...etc...etc.) will turn ANY car into little more than "lawn-art" .

I would try and get the thing running, possibly a rolling "push start"..? Temporarily running 12 volts thru the starter ? And drive it around for a while; see if you cant blow out whatever is between the valve seats and the valves. If you are very lucky, that's all you need to do. My best wishes for you. The alternative will be time-consuming and expensive !

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Not aftermarket necessarily. Packard factory heaters had mostly out of sight vertically mounted underdash switches on many of the prewar models. Some were illuminated and others not. quote]

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You are correct - well, as to the so called "Junior" models.

Bear in mind we might as well be talking about two different makes of cars - what came out the doors at the Packard factory were two different cars - products of the "junior" division and products of the "Senior" division. The only parts that were common to both divisions were the interior door handles and dome light fixtures. (even the headlamp lenses were different!).

The illustration you provided supports your statement - but again, only as to the "Junior Division".

Again, a factory-installed heating system in 1938 for the "Senior" cars had the switches thru the dash itself, as illustrated in the photo that started this thread - not hanging underneath.

Incidentally, both fire-wall mounted hot water heaters, and "aircraft type" manifold hot-air heaters were avail. as options on Senior division products. ( I do not recall the "manifold-hot air" type being offered on junior division cars ( I don't make this stuff up - I have worked on one or two Packards of that model year (oh maybe a few more?) A look at the Senior Division/s PARTS BOOK, wiring diagrams, etc., confirms what I think I know about this !)