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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Home away from home
 
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I should have re-read our correspondence several times over HH and your very much appreciated knowledge would have sunk in but all I could see was "LOW" band tight and "PARK" "NEUTRAL" creep...I don't think the PO ever drove it over 35 and I've only had up to about 55 once at best and that was very brief...there's no sense in beating a dead horse...I'll move forward with the various checks and adjustments and try to get a handle on it as we discussed...just trying to put 2 and 2 together but keep coming up with 5 pending further investigation.
Posted on: 2012/1/4 15:19
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Forum Ambassador
 
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Gator -
Fluid change and pan inspection was a good first step - neither terribly difficult nor expensive to do. Sounds like you didn't find anything too out of the ordinary. Glad to hear that the manual valve is hitting all the detents when it should, just make sure you're in the right one when checking the base control linkage adjustment. If the reverse band is too tight, that could cause drag in both Low and High range, but such a condition would run counter to your report of forward creep in neutral. Forward creep could be due to low band or high range clutch not being fully released when they should be, which could be a hydraulic or mechanical issue or even a combination of both. Again, we're just guessing at this point. Safe bet would be to check both band adjustments per the shop manual - relatively easy to accomplish if you can work from under the the car SAFELY. Then, pressure tests results will help identify or rule out hydraulic issues. The last few pages of "Trouble Shooting and Corrective Measures" in the Ultramatic section of the 1951-1954 Service Manual deal with out of line pressures and their possible causes.
Posted on: 2012/1/4 21:52
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Home away from home
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Quote:
Posted on: 2012/1/5 9:59
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Forum Ambassador
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Gator -
Quote: Adjusting the bands is the one thing that's always been "taboo" for as far back as I can remember...always hearing "don't tamper with the band adjustment!" of course that was on later automatics built in the 60's and 70's. I haven't read the Ultramatic section of the service manual to see if it was required as a normal maintenance procedure but at this point, I suspect that maybe someone has already tampered with the adjustment and they need to be readjusted in accordance with the specifications. Again, I hope everyone realizes that I don't mean to beat a dead horse here but instead, I'm just trying to establish some semblance of order to the steps I take in the process of elimination...fluid change first, linkage adjustments second, band adjustments third, pressure tests fourth...sounds like a plan and yes, safety first always BH, I didn't live to be 60 living recklessly. I'm emphasizing band adjustment because you seem to think there's an unusual drag and it's comparatively easy to check. I seem to recall that band adjustment was part of routine dealer service on GM trannies back in the 60s/70s. Yes, it's hard to say what was done to this poor old trans in the 50+ years since the Packard dealer network and factory-trained serviceman began to evaporate. Yet, even if either one or both bands are at fault, there may be more to the story than mere adjustment. You seem have a good handle on the order of events that need to occur. Just be sure to familiarize yourself with the relevant factory material that's been donated the website by many generous members. Also, the Ultramatic Drive Serviceman's Training Book provides an execellent treatment on theory of operation. BTW, you might wanna soak the band adjusting screw locknuts with a good penetrating oil, several minutes in advance. Report back with your findings and one of us will try to advise you with the next steps.
Posted on: 2012/1/5 10:12
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Home away from home
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Quote:
It's not so much drag as much as it is "creep". I don't know if slight creep is acceptable or if there should be none at all or if it's just enough to keep it from locking into DD...I'm just laying out a plan to eliminate the candidates one at a time. You're right about the past life of the tranny. Lack of trained professionals giving it the attention it needed not to mention the poor roads and driving conditions that the old gal's been exposed to. This one's supposed to have 49,000 original miles on it and that may be true but considering that back in the 50's, we didn't have near as many paved roads as we do now so I'm sure it's had a few rough rides. Evidence also suggests that she was exposed to her fair share of dirt roads and considering the region of the country that it came from, some areas of steeply inclined roads as well so it's anyones guess as to how hard or easy it was driven and how little or well it was maintained by any number of previous owners. Considering what they've been through, it's quite amazing that we still have as many surviving Ultramatics gracing our presence as there are. All I can say Hats off to the pioneering engineers of cutting edge automobile technology... Quote:
I will certainly do both BH, and a sincere thanks to you, HH, and the many others for the expert advice. I and I'm sure others like me, very much appreciate the professional help that we have at our finger tips here, literally, as well as the volumes of scanned images and documents that we can reference 24-7...Big Kev's done a terrific job with this site...
Posted on: 2012/1/5 11:50
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Home away from home
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A slight creep when revving the engine in neutral or park is not unusual, especially when the fluid is cold, but it is still a good idea to check the band adjustment. The creep is just fluid drag on the multiple discs of the high clutch.
Band adjustment will not however have the faintest effect on whether the trans will do its lockup or not. That is a completely distinct hydraulic circuit-the reason that Ultras will also lock their convertors in L range. I am surprised that you can not feel a difference between L and H on takeoff as there is quite a bit more torque available; am also wondering that the engine sounds so busy at 45. I wonder if you are getting high at all. In which case I would carefully check the 5/16" adjustment where the shifter valve enters the valvebody. On these 49-54 Ultras the detents are MEANINGLESS unless that adjustment is correct. A problem there will rob you of high and of lockup.
Posted on: 2012/1/5 13:06
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Home away from home
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Quote:
AH HAH!...you just struck gold Ross!...both times that I've driven the car I felt a very slight change in the transmission when I was slowing down I was probably dropping down from around 45 to 40 maybe 38 or so when it did it...I felt a little bump and something similar to a slight downshift and I was thinking it was the DD releasing but the whole time I'm wondering why it was running at such high RPM's if it was in "HIGH"...geez! how darn fast can a '53 Packard go in "LOW" gear...I've had it up to 55 and it wasn't really roaring!...it certainly wasn't redlining! Quote:
I asked HH if he could describe how the Ultramatic should feel so that I could get an idea of what to expect and he did...and very well I might add stating that: "the Ultra does feel sluggish when in high range--like the old Dynaflows. You hear and feel the engine spin up and then the car reluctantly starts to move and keeps going. After you reach the governed speed--anywhere from 20-40 depending on throttle position, if things are working properly the DD will engage almost imperceptibly and engine will seem to slow down". I hope you don't mind my posting that HH but that's what I needed...and Ross, it's my fault for not having already performed the manual "LOW" to "HIGH" shift so I could provide a better comparison but I do believe at this point that you are absolutely correct...I don't believe I have a "HIGH" gear and don't beleive the previous owner did either...no wonder he bragged about how easy it drove up and onto the trailer in "HIGH" as he stated...darn thing was in low all along and he didn't even know it...no wonder he never drove it out of the neighborhood...it probably wouldn't pass a gas station without stopping! Thanks a bunch Ross!...I'll definitely perform the LOW to HIGH shift and post results ASAP but won't have chance to check the 5/16" adjustment on the manual valve until this weekend...
Posted on: 2012/1/5 15:48
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Home away from home
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O.K., I just put the '53 to the test and found out that I should have attempted the manual shift before I even posted but it's too late now so everyone please accept my apology for not gathering the facts first...I do have "HIGH" gear afterall and there is a big difference between it and "LOW" gear however I do not feel anything that would lead me to believe that DD is locking up...there is no drop in RPM and at 55, the RPM's are high which is what led me to believe that it was in "LOW" gear to begin with...I guess I just didn't expect the engine to be turning as hard as it does even with DD not working so I assume the RPM's fall off substantially when it is. Based on what I know now, There's no way this car could cruise comfortably at anything above 55 without the converter locking up and even then, I wouldn't want to drive it very far...Big Kev was right though, it climbed right on up to 55 easily without feeling sluggish but its looking for another gear when it gets there...soooooooo, now I need to check the adjustment on the manual valve lever and if necessary, move on to pressure tests and get some readings in order to start narrowing down the problem...thanks again all...will post results when I get them.
Posted on: 2012/1/5 20:13
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Re: Converter Lock-up
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Forum Ambassador
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Gator -
Just so you know, the (internal) gear ratios for all version of the Ultramatic are: .Low = 1.82:1 High = 1.00:1 You might then be interested to know that GM's Powerglide automatic transmission used the exact same ratios. Also, from 1950-52, the Powerglide had NO automatic shift between Low and High - just like the original Ultramatic. Yet, the Powerglide had NO converter clutch. So, with Direct Drive not working in your Ultramatic, you've got essentially the same performance as an early Powerglide! In contrast, Chrysler's Torqueflite had ratios of: 1st = 2.45:1 2nd = 1.45:1 3rd = 1.00:1 ...GM's THM-400 had ratios of: 1st = 2.48:1 2nd = 1.48:1 3rd = 1.00:1 ...and their THM-350 had ratios of: 1st = 2.52:1 2nd = 1.52:1 3rd = 1.00:1 Some of your driving sensations may be a matter of comparing apples to oranges. High gear ratio in a 2-speed unit is same as 3rd (D) in a 3-speed. Low gear ratio of 1.82:1 is kind of an "in-betweener" that relies more on the torque characteristics of the engine and torque multiplication of the converter. Yet, I've no doubt that there is a problem with the operation of your direct drive clutch. Like BigKev's Gear Start, it could be that it's trying to engage, but lacks sufficient pressure to move the piston (pressure plate), However, it could be a completely different problem at the root. Only a pressure test will tell us more.
Posted on: 2012/1/5 23:17
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