Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

for '55 Packard guy-regarding the TORSION BAR suspension idea

Yeah - it was fantastic. Have any of you seen the promo film Packard made when they introduced the TORSION BAR system? It is still around.

I was at an auto show in late '54, and I can tell you people's mouths literally dropped open when that film was showed. I personally saw Packard sales people actually run out of their order book paperwork signing people up for new torsion-bar equipped Packards...THAT'S how fantastic even a FILM of this fantastic system was.

The film-strip showed a new torsion bar equipped Packard go over the same extreme bump ( a humped rail-road crossing ) at extreme speeds, and then they took all three luxury car competitors over the same bump at the same speed.

Wow ! Of course the torsion-bar equipped Packard remained unruffled and in control. And of course the bouncing of the competitor cars was pretty extreme and funny.

No wonder those first few months saw Packard sales recovering. How sad Packard's production philosphy caused them to put out such badly assembled cars, with so many "glitches", that the public revolted, with the sad end discussed so many times ( with so many excuses).

I saw the same film at the 1954 Detroit Auto Show and also vividly recall looking at the 25000 miles "non-stop" 1955 Packard Patrician with the broken windshield from hitting a pheasant that was on display. The torsion level was a big hit and deservedly so.

damn..poor peasant...!

Oh well..heck with em if they wont get out of the way...

regarding MERLINS

Sorry - Merlin aircraft engines, and the details, are way beyond my pay grade. I am in the situation John so often finds himself - really dont know what I am talking about in terms of personal hands-on knowledge in this area; can only repeat what I have read.

I dont know anything about your discussion on rod bearings. Differs from what I read. My understanding is that the copper-lead precision "insert" type bearing was developed jointly by Federal Mogul and Packard, and tested on the Packard High Speed test track. Wasnt there.

They came up with the idea of the silver-lead substitute, not because of strength issues, but because of chemical reaction issues, solved later by the development of additives to motor oil. There were some erosion problems with the copper-lead insert with dirty engine oil that were solved with the silver type. In fact, Packard Stores even offered, for a short time, for automotive use, silver-lead insert bearings. Again, once engine oil evolution with new additives solved this problem, that ended the need for the silver-type insert. I dont recall seeing them offered in the Packard parts books out when I was a kid working in garages in the 50's.

Again, "I wasnt there", in the 1930's and, again, like John, can only go by what I read.

To my knowledge, there are no silver-lead inserts offered for general use today - my understanding is the copper-lead bearing is still the "standard" for extreme duty service.

With much shorter strokes, the extreme strength of the copper-lead type bearing isn't necessary in ordinary service. I know some heavy duty diesel engines use them, not sure about lighter duty truck and industrial applications.

As for developing a way to produce reliable mass-produced over-head valve, over-head cam "cross flow" type motors, suggest you review the evolution of the Packard Liberty during World War I. I gave up storing back-issues of the various publications from which I get my information (on subjects like this, where I DONT know what I am talking about from personal experiece), so I cant provide you with specific reference sources.

Perhaps someone in here who DOES know what they are talking about ( as to the technical details of Packard aircraft engine evolution), can fill us in. I read somewhere that some parts will interchange between the English and American "Merlins". Somewhere I read the English motor had to be completely re-engineered to eliminate failure-prone areas, and set up up for American tooling.

As for super-chargers, Packard had developed them during World War One. Seen photos. Wasnt there either.

Quote:

Pete, everyone has a right to their opinion, but when you just go around telling everyone they are wrong, and your only cite "your were there" as your source of information, then that starts to grate people. Just like paint....memories fade, and I think your are trying to interject your opinions as fact. One broke axle becomes two, and after 50 years of telling the same story it morphs into that they would break if you looked at them wrong. I'm not saying that you didnt replace a few axles in your time, but to claim that they were all bad without any backing document is once again opinion. Which is different than fact.

There is nothing wrong with debate, but when your canned arguement is always "I was there, you were not", then eventually people stop valuing your input, and start rolling their eyes, and you end up in the same category as the guy standing on the street corner talking to himself.

When Packard had an issue with the Dana axles in 56, they released a letter to the service departments about the problem. The problem was a Dana error, but Packard took car of it. I think (opinion, not fact, see the difference?) that if there was an epidemic of faulty, or inferior axles in 1951 or any other year, then we would have found something in STBs, SCs, Zone Letters, etc. But yet, nothing has surfaced to that affect. So if you would like to provide us with a copy of such a document, then I will be the first to say you were right, and I was wrong. Now I am not saying that a tree falling down in the forest doesnt make a sound when no one is around, i'm just saying that I didnt hear it.

We are a community of Packard owners, there is no prize for trying to come in first.

hi Kev:

Glad you are not doubting that I "replaced a few Packard axles". Can't prove it.

Havn't had a post-war Packard for over 40 years - receipts are long gone. NEVER EVER had to replace a axle on a GMC or Chrysler Corp. product. Never heard of a pre-war Packard doing that (my recollection is that the "guts" of Packards thru 1949 production were essentially pre-war in execution, if not in the actual parts themselves) (lord knows the axles in our '47 Super Clipper SHOULD have broken, given all the drag racing I did in that thing...!)

Now, to be fair, Chrysler also used that cheapo mickey mouse "ball & trunion" sorry excuse for a U joint that gave us such fits with the Ultramatic-equipped cars, so let's give a "Bronx Cheer" for that too....!

Could be I am a trouble maker - making up / imagined the whole thing about Packard sales exploding with enthusiastic new & "repeat" customers in late '54 and early '55,... then came sales volume disaster when the horrid build quality and tech. defects became knowledge....hmm..maybe I made all that up just to irritate you guys.

In fact, perhaps it is MY fault that Packard isn't in business. All right..I confess..it was me at 1580 East Grand Ave. who said "braces, hell, we WANT those hoods to flutter & shimmy...."

Did you know that I stood in front of every Packard agency in every city all over the United States, in the mid 1950's, and chased away all those lines of people (standing in line to buy new Packards). Shame on me.

Where did you get the idea I wanted to "come in first" ? Is preserving our Packards, helping others with ACCURATE technical info., and trying to accurately understand and portray industrial history a "race" or contest ?

Hmmm...perhaps you are right. Maybe I shouldn't correct some of the inaccuracies that show up from time to time...Some people ARE getting rich off of de-industrializing our country by off-shoring our industry, and "dumbing down" our education and language. Perhaps I should have more respect for their feelings ?

A closing thought. We are going to Wal Mart to buy some house-hold gadgets. Store is full of famous-name brands like G.E., Westinghouse, RCA, Whirlpool, etc. Anywone want to guess what management decisions were made so that those names are simply "tacked on" to products "off-shored"...? Hmm...guess I made up the idea that Packard management decided it would be fun to close down the plant, and glue the name "Packard" on some Studebakers. Now THERE's an idea to breed more customer excitement and loyalsty...!

I submit, we should study carefully the pioneering of the Packard Motor Car Company, on its way up...and on its way DOWN. There is a LOT to contemplate there....!

Frankly Pete its more the condecending tone of your posts, then your knowledge I have an issue with. There is a difference between talking to people, and talking at people. You start out great, and then somewhere along the way it becomes "I'm right, and the rest of you are all silly". Same pattern from you that we have seen for years in the AACA forum.

I tend to let things play themselves out here on the website, but when people start getting a little to abrasive, then I need to put the moderator hat on. It's all about having a little mutual respect. Really only rule I have here...

...and with that I have said my peace.

Kev -

His broken record is an example of the snobbery and bashing that I've heard many people tell me has turned them off to traditional clubs.

I also find it incredible - in another thread, in response to a query on his change of Username - that he would say:

Quote:
Then after you call him on the carpet, he backpeddles and says:

Quote:
It reminds me of some pathological liars I've encountered over the years.

However, I don't think you should ban ol' PFHartmann, but let his posts stand to show what he's truly made of (and it stinks). The only thing you might consider is adding an "Ignore" feature so we can enjoy all threads, but without having to look at his nonsense.

55Packardguy: I know that Owen expressed his views on why Packard went 10 years without producing a V12 engine. What he stated is correct, but I would like to add some of my own views.

After reading a lot of history on Packard. I think that when Packard came out with the straight eight engine in 1923, they truly had a better engine than the Caddy V8.

One problem that Caddy had with their first V8 engine, it had a vibration problem at certain speeds. From what I am able to understand Caddy was never was able to solve this problem. The Packard inline 8 was a much smoother and polished engine than what GM could come up with. However when Caddy came out with the V16 Packard was forced to respond.

During the 10's, 20's and 30'w Caddy was never in the same class as Packard concerning luxury cars. Several years ago I was able to drive a 1932 Caddy All Weather Phaeton with the V8 engine. Then I turned right around and rode in a 1933 Packard Dietrich V12 Convertible Sedan. I could tell right away that the Packard was by far a better car than the Caddy.

John F. Shireman

John : Again you arent being fair - you are comparing cars from different price ranges. The Packard V-12 was a more expensive car than the 8 cyl. Cads., with a MUCH larger and technically more sophisticated engine.

Now, as a Packard fan, I would note that I personally think an 8 cyl. Packard from the same price range as the 8 cyl Cad. you rode in would still be a more pleasant driving experience, perhas even a better car !

As a side-note, of course the Cad. V-12's and V-16's thru 1937 were magnificent LOOKING power-plants, well-built, and nice-drivers. The Cad. V-16 of 1938-1940 was in some ways superior to the Packard V-12 - this was a much more modern "short stroke" design, much smoother than the Packard V-12. I would also have to admit that the '38-40 V-16 Cads. had a superior all-steel body. As you may recall, I told you that at one time I owned the "Mae West" Series 90 (1938 Cadillac V-16 Imperial Formal Sedan) when it was still in mint mint mint condition, so a direct side-by-sid comparison was avail. to me.

My own view as a car buff is that we are not and should not think of ourselves in competiion with each other's cars; some of my best friends drive classic-era Cadillacs !

Each of my fellow car buff friend's cars has a special story to tell, and has a special place in our lives.

It dosnt bother me, and it shouldn't bother anyone else, that when I get together with other car buffs that mine or someone else's car has this or that feature that is "bigger, better, or faster". It DOES bother me on the rare occasions when someone gets their nose out of joint because their little fantasy gets challenged by some real-world facts. I dont see how inferring our fellow chatters are "pathalogical liars" benefits old car buffs.

I have been invited to exhibit my Packard Twelve in a VERY prestegious concourse next week-end. Good chance my car will be the "doggiest" there (this is where the guys bring out cars that have been finished like costume jewelery -driven off enclosed trailers right on the grass; many have never touched pavement ! ).

Betcha we will all have a lot of fun, perhaps learn a thing or two we didn't have a chance to learn before, and no-one would care if mine is the rattiest car there (as it may well be ! ).

In my view, we best serve the old car hobby, and the history it represents, by having a sense of sportsmanship and a spirit of mutual assistance. Not clear how a small minority of the guys in here think they help anyone by getting nasty.

There is a lot to be learned, and a lot of fun to be shared. And the more we try to be ACCURATE with what we learn and share, the better we serve each other.