Packard Forum Index » V-8 (1955-56)

jfrom@kanter
I am wondering if I use the kanter kit.
What do I do if I ever need brake pads and rotors?
Are they made specific to the kit or general parts adapted to the Packard?

Thank you

Yes the pads, rotors, bearings and calipers are from modern applications and replacements can be attained locally or through us. The instructions include pad and rotor replacement numbers.

Thanks
James From
Kanter Auto Products

I'm going to venture into an area here that has not been discussed, at least to my memory.

Why are power brakes so important? It seems to me that an unboosted master cylinder replacement for the TV booster and cylinder would do the job just fine. If disc brakes are to be fitted to the front, then a dual chamber cylinder would be necessary. I had Ross replace the TV system on my 55 Clipper with a conventional single chamber master cylinder along with the change over from an Ultramatic to a manual shift transmission. He was able to fit the whole assembly of master cylinder, pedal and linkage with parts from an earlier model. It worked just fine and the pedal pressure was light. I could modulate the brakes easily and felt comfortable with them.

My Clipper had the conventional coil and leaf spring suspension. A car with the torsion bar system might pose some problems fitting the suggested cylinder. Were any TL Packards made without power brakes?

My '55 Panama has TL & manual brakes. The master cylinder is located under the Driver's floor board.
With a fabricated bracket & a master with outlets on the outboard side, a tandem master would be fairly simple.
With disks, the residual valve would need to be removed from that outlet.

The only tie in between brakes and TL is the brake light switch. Stock, it is mounted at the brass junction block bolted to the frame under the battery where the lines between the master and front wheels join. As long as that junction block is kept in the new plumbing system there would be no change.

If the junction block and stock lines are eliminated with the disc conversion then the switch would need to be relocated somewhere else in the brake lines. With the typical metered fluid and lower or delayed pressure going to the rear drums in a disc conversion it might be better if the switch stayed in the lines to the front wheels although since it only turns off the TL I doubt location would be that critical.

You could also eliminate the hydraulic switch and go to some kind of mechanical switch arrangement operated by the pedal arm.

Hi Howard. My next project is adding front disc brakes to my Pacific. The parts website is very concise and has a very clear Youtube install video.

Remove drum, add disc and connect flex line. There is no mention of changing the master cylinder or removing the residual pressure valve. Most posts mention this or are quite old. What am I missing? As always, you help is greatly appreciated.

parts:

wilwood.com/brakekits/brakekitlistfront?year=1950&make=packard&model=super+eight&mod

video:

youtube.com/watch?v=qB4FYNRRyC4

video transcript:

First you need to lift the front wheels off the ground.

Snap off the hub cap and remove the lug nuts.

Remove the dust cap, cotter pin, castle nut and spindle washer.

Carefully lift off the drum. Four bolts hold the internal drum assembly to the spindle. The lower two have cotter pins.

Remove the bolts and slide off the drum brake backing plate and internals.

Exposed spindle will need to be cleaned of any dirt, grease, burs or debris.


The new hardware comes with two specific bolts:
The shorter bolt with threads that go to the end, goes towards the front of the vehicle.
The longer bolt with an unthreaded tip goes towards the rear of the vehicle.

The washer and nut thread onto the inboard side of the spindle.

Torque it down to specification.

The top two bolts have the threads towards the outboard side of the spindle.

Install the spacers and apply BLUE Loctite to the threads.

Thread them into the bracket.

The bracket should mount up flush without any interference.

Now it's time to assemble your new Hub.

First install the wheel studs using RED Loctite.
Bolt the hat to the hub.

Bolt the rotor to the hat also using RED Loctite and torque it down in a crisscross pattern.

Refer to the supplemental instructions for all the proper torque settings.

Now it's time to get your bearings.

The supplied bearings need to be packed with disc brake grease.

Install the inner bearing and evenly tap the dust seal into place.

Dropping the smaller outer bearing in and your hub is complete.

This kit utilizes an indexing ring with a bevel.

The beveled edge slides on first and will face towards the vehicle.

Slide on the hub using your thumbs to prevent the outer bearing from dropping out.

Install the spindle washer and castle nut.

You want to work the bearing tension with the castle nut to the manufacturer spec.

Install the cotter pin and tap on the dust cap.

This kit comes with a wheel spacer for use with the stock wheels.

The wheel spacer provides a clamping surface between the steel wheel and the aluminum hub.

Apply teflon tape to the brake hose fitting and screw it into the caliper, the footing should end up up and parallel with the caliper.

Start assembling the caliper without using any thread lock.

This way you can make shim adjustments and properly align the caliper.

Start off trying two shims.

The caliper needs to be centered on the rotor and the outside edge of the rotor should align with the outside edge of the brake pads.

You can add or subtract the supplied shims to achieve proper alignment.

Once you have everything properly adjusted, go ahead and disassemble the caliper.

Apply blue Loctite to all the bolts and torque everything down to the settings outlined in the installation instructions.

Secure the pads with the supplied cotter pin and bend the pin to lock everything in place.

Disconnect the OEM rubber brake line by removing the clip and unbolting it from the connection.

Reconnect the new flex line quickly keeping fluid leakage to a minimum.

You should route the flex line on so it doesn't interfere with any of the moving parts such as suspension, steering or wheel components.

Before hitting the streets with your new disc brake upgrade carefully follow the brake bleeding and break in procedures included with your kit.

It appears someone has done a good job of documenting the steps involved so adding discs mechanically is apparently fairly painless providing the proper kit is used. Having never done it I cannot comment on the precise order but it seems reasonable. Be aware that 54 was a transition year for Packard and particularly the Clippers inasmuch as the small wheelbase models had some suspension and brake configurations that did not necessarily follow what was done on other years similar models. Just be sure of what was used on your model to ensure buying the correct kit. The xxx kit that a vendor says fits all years of such and such model may not hold for 54.

From almost every site I checked, discs typically need more pressure and take more fluid volume than drums and cannot use a residual valve without having the discs drag. That is something that needs to be checked because if the kit you use needs the increased volume, in my opinion using the Bendix power brake master is more of an issue because of the way it works and the volume of fluid out it can deliver. I know it has been done and people report no issues but I wonder how much of any safety reserve has been used up. Is there enough pedal travel left for a safety margin to allow for any wear or mis-adjustment at the pads or shoes. It is sort of like the issue I have with those who have used the Electro-boost systems to replace the Bendix TreadleVacs to keep the unit in the same locations and pedals unchanged. In those installs they have compensated for the lack of the appropriate pedal ratio by increasing the boost on the electric unit. What happens if a power component fails and suddenly there is no boost or reserve available.

My concern with the Bendix power brake master is that it does not have a piston pushing a volume of fluid in front of it like a manual cylinder or modern masters but rather uses a solid steel cylinder that slides into a volume of fluid to displace an amount to the wheels. To get any increased volume to the wheels for discs the pedal travel needs to move the rod farther into the master. The question is with more pedal travel, at what point does the pedal travel reach its limit and can deliver no more. Add to that, if the vacuum portion fails -- even with self energizing drums all around -- because of the 1:1 pedal ratio the car is an absolute nightmare to stop when going at any decent speed -- almost to the point of having soiled upholstery. I can tell you from personal experience, if going up a hill and the engine stops and you start rolling backwards, it is much worse because there is no self energizing of the shoes thus no brakes period. I would wonder if having enough pressure for discs under no vacuum conditions would be even more of a challenge.

Assuming the TreadleVac could be used safely then that leaves the residual valve. I believe that obstacle could be overcome by removing the existing valve from the output port of the master and reusing the original brass block and ports for lines out. Some new tubing and careful bending could add an inline combo proportioning and residual valve adjacent to the booster in the portion of line going to the rear wheels only.

Master Power Brakes site has a good FAQ that goes into the use of existing masters rather well but there is no mention of the Bendix units since they are so old.

Spot on Howard. Thank you for your help. I dug deeper with the manufacturer.


Master Cylinder:
*This brake kit may be used with the OEM single circuit master cylinder. However, the RESIDUAL PRESSURE VALVE must be removed inside the master cylinder to prevent unwanted front brake drag. NOTE: Care must be taken not to damage the master cylinder seals when reinstalling the piston assembly.

*For increased safety, and improved pedal feel, we recommend replacing the OEM master cylinder with a dual circuit Wilwood 7/8" bore tandem master cylinder (P/N 260-9439). The new master cylinder will require replumbing of some brake lines.

So here you have it....remove drum, add disc, connect flex line and remove residual pressure valve from OEM single circuit master cylinder.

I am curious how daunting it will be to remove the residual pressure valve.

wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront?itemno=140-12724



TC

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If you have the manual master the residual valve assy just sits in the end of the cylinder held by the piston return spring as your illustration shows and can be removed by taking the master apart just as if you were doing a rebuild. If you have the Bendix power brake you need to remove the hydraulic output fitting to access the residual valve assy and then make sure the fitting seals again when it screws back in. You may need a new O ring for a proper seal.

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Hi Howard. Thank you for your response. My 54 Packard Pacific has easamatic bendix treadle-vac power brakes. In light of removing the residual pressure valve in the existing unit and just finding a rebuilt unit with the valve removed already. Is the packard easamatic bendix brake booster/master cylinder unit the same as what came in a Cadillac or any manufacturer from the same era? If so, when purchasing a rebuilt Cadillac unit I can simply ask that the residual pressure valve be removed and then swap out my old unit. Costly, but quick and simple for me.
FYI, I drive the car a lot on weekends with my children along the beach and back. I have come across a handful of posts on packard bendix treadle vac horror stories. My current original drum setup is fairly new/rebuilt and have no had problems sans a little fade when things heat up after several hours. What is your opinion and your constituents of it being necessary to convert to front disc brakes?

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