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Re: Manual Transmission Clicking Noise
#11
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blue40devil
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Tim,

The input shaft and the cluster gear are the only 2 things in the trans that are always moving under your scenarios, I believe.

I would jack up the rear wheels, put the axle on non Harbor Freight stands, maybe take the wheels off, get your least favorite person to lie under the car and
run thru the gears and see if you can isolate the noise.

I used to have 3 transmission shops and we hated manuals with a passion.

Bill

Posted on: 1/26 1:02
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Re: Manual Transmission Clicking Noise
#12
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PackardDon
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Admittedly I did not carefully read the details here but once I had an odd noise coming from the driveline of my 1952 Henney-Packard which had just had the transmission rebuilt. Typically I do my own work of that nature but that one time there was a rush and, as I was living in an apartment with only a carport, I deferred to a nearby shop. It turned out that they had put the clutch plate in upside down (or backwards, depending on how you look at it) so that its little springs were lightly touching the flywheel bolt heads! Put in the proper direction, the noise was gone!

Posted on: 1/26 2:34
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Re: Manual Transmission Clicking Noise
#13
Not too shy to talk
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TimE
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Quote:

DavidPackard wrote:
TimE: I too commend you on the depth of your investigation. I word of caution however would be the faith you might have in your cage speed calculations in that the radial load on the bearing has a significant impact on the actual cage speed, along with lubrication specifics.

I’ve been reading all of my old ‘Motor’s Manuals’ but haven’t found an easy answer . . . sorry. Actually the trouble shooting guides in the transmissions section were dropped sometime in the late ‘40s or early ‘50s.

Now for a round of ‘twenty questions’:

Is the car equipped with an ‘Econo-Drive’, aka overdrive?

May I assume the first/reverse slider rotates only when the output shaft is rotating, but in your idle case the slider was not rotating, yet the ticking was present? There was no mention whether the noise was present in reverse. I guess I assumed when you used the term ‘idle’; one the car was not moving, two the transmission was in neutral, and finally the first/reverse slider was not rotating? If this is TRUE then everything was rotating except for the first/reverse slider and the output shaft. And then when the clutch was depressed all of the rotation was brought to rest just as you said.


When the clutch is depressed, and the vehicle speed is zero, then all elements within the transmission should come to rest eventually . . . perhaps a few seconds with warm oil, and the normal warm idle speed. The next diagnostic test might be; establish a forward speed in first, and confirm the ticking noise is present. Then with the car still rolling depress the clutch, and note whether the noise is present. If the car is equipped with an overdrive let’s conduct this test twice, once with the OD mechanically enabled (cable IN), and again with the OD mechanically disabled (cable OUT). Considering the noise is also present in second gear this test should be repeated in that gear also. That would make a total of four test cases. To Chris’ point, the purpose of this test sequence would be to isolate whether the noise is generated by the transmission. If the ticking is still there when the car is moving forward (clutch depressed) and it stops only when you brake to a stop.

I’m thinking about the countershaft (aka cluster gear) thrust bearings (bronze washers), and whether the entire cluster gear has excessive fore/aft motion. It looks like there would be an axial force, proportional to torque, on the cluster gear except when the transmission is in third gear. I’m trying to make a connection between cluster gear axial position and the ticking. I haven’t found the service limits on the cluster gear clearance.

Finally, if the ticking is interference between a rotating part and the stationary case then you might find magnetic wear metal in the oil. Same would be TRUE if the 2nd gear cluster and the 1st gear main were interfering. I believe there are drain plugs with a built-in magnetics that might help determine if a gear to gear, or a gear to case interference is causing the noise.

That’s all I’ve got tonight . . . By the way try to catch the TV news tonight or tomorrow. You should see a segment about snow in the northern sections of Phoenix today. We had a bit, but not a lot, of graupel where I live.

dp



David,

I agree that the bearing cage fault frequency seems to be an unlikely culprit in this scenario. I would describe the noise to be a factor of approximately .43 to engine RPM.

To answer your questions, the car is not equipped with overdrive, so that can be eliminated. You are correct in assuming that the 1st/reverse sliding gear is only active when the driving shaft is in motion, so it can be eliminated because the noise is present with the car stationary. I have confirmed that the noise is present in first while the the vehicle is in motion and sounds to be about the same frequency as when stationary. I know the noise is present when the transmission is in 2nd, clutch depressed, and vehicle is coasting. I have not verified if the noise is present with the transmission in neutral, vehicle coasting, and clutch depressed or released and will try this tonight. Also, I have not noticed the noise in reverse and will have to double check.

You bring up an interesting point in regard to the countershaft thrust clearance. During my inspection with the transmission disassembled I found the front thrust washer to have some wear that appeared a little odd, but the surface was still smooth. It looked as though there may have been some debris imbedded at some point, but it cleaned up well and I reused it. The countershaft rotates at a factor of .65 to engine RPM, however I have not considered axial movement against the spring-loaded rear thrust surface. I will have to take a look and see if the helical pattern of the gear would even cause rearward movement or simply keep the countershaft towards the front thrust surface.

Thank you for your thoughts, it helps to hear other ideas simply talk it through with another person. Good luck with the snow, It has been in the 80's here is South Florida.

Tim

Posted on: 1/26 7:33
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Re: Manual Transmission Clicking Noise
#14
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

TimE
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Quote:

PackardDon wrote:
Admittedly I did not carefully read the details here but once I had an odd noise coming from the driveline of my 1952 Henney-Packard which had just had the transmission rebuilt. Typically I do my own work of that nature but that one time there was a rush and, as I was living in an apartment with only a carport, I deferred to a nearby shop. It turned out that they had put the clutch plate in upside down (or backwards, depending on how you look at it) so that its little springs were lightly touching the flywheel bolt heads! Put in the proper direction, the noise was gone!


How frustrating that must have been for you. I have always done my own work and for that exact reason, plus I enjoy it most times.

Posted on: 1/26 7:34
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