Packard Forum Index » General

Funny thing is, Packard went up market by dropping their six cylinder models while Cadillac went down by offering the B body model 61.

I do agree that the Clipper body was a little small for a luxury car especially after Cadillac introduced their new style for 1948. Packard didn't have anything similar until 1951.

The top brass seemed to neglect the senior cars until it was too late. They always seemed to be trying to catch up with what Cadillac did 3 or 4 years ago.

I still think Cadillac did a masterfull job of building up the Cadillac image while Packard rested on their laurels.

For example, Cadillac was careful to build slightly fewer cars than they could sell. This made Cadillacs hard to get and of course, all the more desirable. It also kept resale and trade in values high. This was an important incentive. When a Cadillac owner could trade his car in every year or 2 for little or no depreciation of course this made it easy to sell the Caddy owner a new car.

In the end this restricted supply actually sold more cars.

Another masterpiece of image building was the Cadillac/Winston jewellers advertising campaign. It said nothing about the cars, it had nothing to do with the cars, it planted the idea of a Cadillac being the ultimate success symbol.

A Cadillac insider at the time admitted their advertising had nothing to do with selling cars. It was aimed at flattering Cadillac owners. Those owners then sold the cars.

This is a most interesting thread. With Packard fading out in the late 50s my guess would be customers would go any number of places.

Certainly one of the most elegant and well built cars of the era would be the Continental Mark II, also a separate division during its production - apparently a strategy to brand a special car at the time. Ford supposedly lost money on every one, probably due to production inefficiencies. But if you were looking for a postwar car that embodies what a "True Classic" is, that one is tough to beat.

Also, there is arguably a strong Packard connection to the 58-60 Lincolns. This is covered in Ed Blend's book "One Man's Family" - an excellent book for those interested in an older, established collector's recollections of many cars, mostly Packards. (He also wrote "The Magnificant V-12 Packard of 1934") In his book, Blend recalls the Packard staff at Lincoln and makes a strong case that this is a Predictor based style.

Finally, I was interested to learn from Linc400 that the same designer did the slab sided lincoln and '64 Imperial. This explains why I am drawn to that Imperial. Very nice but I think the lincoln is the cleanest, most elegant design of its time. Those Lincolns were very well built, I understand that it took three days to complete one, which may account for the large number of excellent originals even here in New England.

While Packards are my favorite subject, I think many great luxury cars of the 50s and 60s are overlloked due to interest in more common cars and musclecars of the era.

58L8134--Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying, Prior to the 1957 model year the body engineering was done by Briggs. If you ever get a chance look at a 1951-'56 Chrysler body under restoration. The outside "skin" is totally Chrysler in appearance, but the inside body panels look just like a Packard, I mean just like a Packard.
Beginning with the 1957 models Chrysler now had their own body engineering department, and boy, their inexperience shows, as does the Chrysler penchant for slamming things through the shop as quickly as possible (the Imperials were occasionally exempt from this), a practice that beagn with Walter P. at Buick, he realized that the race was won by the swift in production. It was third-rate engineering work, the door glass rattled when you closed the door, and things just looked primitive compared to the other two guys. I knew people who worked in body production back in the 50s and 60s and the stories were pretty amusing/scary. Chrysler bought used presses from GM, and they were worn out when they arrived at Chrysler.
It goads me to see what 1960s Chrysler muscle cars (B body, E body) are getting these days. Yes, they have a magnificently powerful engine and bulletproof transmission, but it's in some of the most medocre body construction ever committed in the US, ever.
There just wasn't emphasis on body quality until the 1980s when they had to get with the program.
One thing that has not been discussed in this thread is the subject of financing.
In the pre-war days most luxury makes were not sold on time payments, they used instead a chattel mortgage, a loan agreement that gives the lending institution the title to the goods financed until the loan has been paid in full. These were from your local bank, and banks typically loan money to people who don't need it and deny those who do.
This kept the volumen on luxury cars low.
Cadillac bucked the trend in the 1930s by offering cadillacs through GMAC to middle class African American professionals in an effort to boost sales numbers of the brand, the GM BOD was discussing the discontinuation fo Cadillac due to high production costs and low sales.
Fard and Chrysler did not have ther own finance arm until much later, so the business of getting a loan for an upperseries car was tricky, and bankers looked askance at someone wanting a car too high above their station in life. GM threw GMAC whole-heartedly at Cadillac after the war and this, coupled with their styling and engineering advances made Cadillac a hard car to beat.
In later years it became common to see people who weren't of the same social status (=income, profession, education) driving Cadillacs and Lincolns. The manufacturers didn't mind, their sales numbers increased every year on the car they realized the highest profit on, but in the end it served to cheapen the image, opening the door for foreign competition. I know of people who were loyal Cadillac buyers who have gone Mercedes/BMW/Lexus and aren't looking back. Too Bad, Bob Lutz has done wonders to Cadillac lately and they are making a great product again.

While Nance and other Packard people went to work for Lincoln, to say that 58 to 60 Lincoln styling was Predictor based, in my opinion is plain cow manure. I have never read any of Ed Blend books, but for him to make that statement, to me he doesn't know what he is talking about.
The original designer of the 58 to 60 Lincoln's was John Najjar.

The only styling feature that may have been borrowed from the Predictor was the roof line that is all. When it comes right down to it Dick Teague may have borrowed that roof design concept for Exner's styling staff. Take a close look at the Plymouth show car introduced at the 1956 Chicago Auto Show. The car was a station wagon called the Plainmans.

Teague had to have some inside connection with someone at Chrysler during that period of time because he went to work for Chrysler in 1957.

John F. Shireman

Here are some pictures of the Plymouth Plainsman.

John F. Shireman

Attach file:

---

  (25.58 KB)


  (37.25 KB)

Just a closing note on my part. The Plainsman and the Predictor were both built by Ghia.


John F. Shireman

Attach file:

---

  (52.73 KB)

Hi

Mr Pushbutton: Thanks for the insight and inside information on Chrysler's body engineering and build quality problems in that era. I have seen both pre-'57 Packard and Chrysler bodies under restoration, yes, nearly identical......just hadn't had the light go on!

For years, I've noted the much higher survival rate of pre-'57 model Chrysler products but hadn't recognize the reason was directly caused by the Briggs buyout. Inexperience in engineering does show terribly in those cars.

As much as I like the '57-'58 Forward Look styling, all have lousy build quality, Imperial excepted somewhat. I had assumed the poor quality was the result of the extreme rushed development to make the '57 sales year, noted in other sources as a two year crash program rather than the normal at the time three years.

Insights: This is why I like this Forum so much, that and the civility of the participants!

Steve

Hi (Again)

On the issue of whether the influx of Packard people into Lincoln in time to greatly influence the '58 models: I doubt if they had any great affect on the results.

Consider the timing, leaving Packard in mid-'56 to arrive at Lincoln development program two years along for a car whose prototypes were in existance and pre-production cars would be underway by Spring '57.

Anyone have insight on the timing of that '58 development program? (I know this isn't the Lincoln Forum, just the same there is such a wellspring of knowledge out there I have to ask)

Steve

Steve, the 1957 Chrysler bodies were originally scheduled for the 1958 model year, but lower sales numbers in 1956 (an off year for everyone, Mr. and Mrs. America all bought their new car in 1955) caused Chrysler (Tex Colbert) to rush the '58 style into 1957. It caught the public's eye, and turned out some good looking cars, but awful tin cans at that, Imperial included.

My point is that anyone seriously interested in a Packard connection to the 58-60 Lincolns may want to read Blend's passage on this. Before dismissing it out of hand the guy has published two books on Packards, is the recognized leading authority on the '34 V-12 models and has had dozens of Packards, as I understand it. He may actually know a little bit of what he is talking about.

But back to Packards...