Packard Forum Index » Post-War (1946-54)

Re: 1951 Packard 200, 288 engine, auto trans.

Started car to go get a 'burger'. As the car has done for the last 10 years, it started. I know the engine sounds, road sounds, every creak and groan she makes. You might even say we "communicate" to each other. After lunch I got in the car went through the start scenario and.....CLICK...... what the he**.......... went through the start scenario again: turn key, depress gas pedal........CLICK........check the head lights, bright. Check the batt connections, good. Check the start switch at the base of carb, working and the small connection on the solenoid gets hot. Jumped the batt side of the solenoid to the starter side of the solenoid......CLICK.... pushed the small button on the top of the solenoid.....CLICK.....I'm getting the feeling the starter is having a problem.....I call for a tow truck and have the car towed back to the storage area where all my tools are. Jeeeeezs, it's now night time. Load tested the battery....it's good. I pulled the starter and took it to a local 'starter/generator' shop. They check it out and gave it a clean bill of health. I'm now starting to doubt my own abilities. Go back and get ready to re-install the starter ( it's day time now), check the different starting wires......then I notice that one tooth on the ring gear is about 1/4 to 1/3 chipped......make a mental note, install the starter/wires and battery. Now I'm going to start it, so I reach down to push the button on the solenoid, I'm looking right at the starter from about two feet away, push button......CLICK...... HUH?????.... at the very moment I pushed the start button I saw the back end of the starter deflect (move back) an 1/8 to a 1/16 of an inch. OMG!!!!! The engine is frozen. I pull the fan and pulley and put a socket and cheater bar on the crankshaft nut but I can't move the engine either way. I now remove the starter, I see that that chipped tooth on the ring gear appears to be chipped off a little more (can't be sure). I retried to turn the crankshaft and the engine turns, so I take 2, 360 degree trips around the ring gear by way of the nut on the crankshaft. The only damage found to the ring gear is that one chipped tooth. Closer inspection reveals that maybe half of the tooth is missing. I move the broken tooth about 180 degrees away from the ring gear/starter interface and reinstall the starter, finger tighten the two starter bolts, recheck the turning of the engine VIA the crankshaft nut, engine turns freely, I can hear the clutch in the bendix clicking as the starter and ring gear are turning, then I fully tighten the starter bolts. I turn the key, depress the accelerator, it cranks and starts.

Conclusion: The starter engaged and hit a here-to-fore unknown broken tooth, thus jamming the starter as evidenced by the starter back plate "set back" (and subsequent jamming) or, the starter did not engage the ring gear properly and broke the tooth and jammed. I've since started the car 10 times, driven, stopped and restarted the engine and every thing is A-OK. Does anybody have thoughts on this? Change ring gear? Let'r ride? Inquiring mind would like to hear.

What ever else may be requiring attention, you're certainly going to have to replace the ring gear. Damaged tooth could be due to several reasons; original manufacturing flaw, excessive leverage when someone use the teeth as leverage points to turn the engine over, and/or too many harsh engagements from 12-volt jumps. That's not an entirely uncommon problem with folks who convert to 12-volts but retain the original 6-volt starter.

Usually you can break the old ring gear off with a chisel. New rings are then heated to expand them before placing back on the flywheel. I think there were some pictures of this procedure on this site recently - perhaps a search will locate them. Not a bad job though it does require a bit of diassembly first.

PS - Opps, just noticed you said automatic. Disregard with rsspect to changing ring gears.

2 choices. Cross your fingers and do nothing. Replace ring gear.

There is a third choice, take off starter and file or grind end of broken tooth to a point or round it off. This to prevent the gears jamming if it come up again.

If Ultramatic, used flex plates should be easily found. If standard at least Max lists the ring gears -- but not the cheapest thing to change. Is that the type ring that can be turned around or is there not enough of the tooth left to do that.

Have many nice flex plates. $40 plus shipping. PM if interested.

Owen has a good point about harsh engagement, on 12 volts the starter spins much faster and really slams into the ring gear.

Car makers went to a finer tooth gear for this reason, when they went to 12V/

It might be a good idea, if you are changing the flex plate, to use a 12V flex plate and starter.

Hello everyone, thank you for replying. FYI, the car is 6V pos ground. The starter and flexplate have been "together" for at least 10 years.

Rusty O'toole'
"There is a third choice, take off starter and file or grind end of broken tooth to a point or round it off. This to prevent the gears jamming if it come up again"

Thanks for that tip, I really don't want to change the flex plate, (I really mean REALLY). In your opinion, if I'm able to reshape the broken tooth and everything works and sounds good, will I be harming the ring gear or starter any further? Is the loss of part.....say, 50% of the tooth that big a deal in the long run? Your thoughts please.


"by Ross on 2011/10/1 13:02:06
Have many nice flex plates. $40 plus shipping. PM if interested."

Thank you I'll do so.....just in case.

There are around 100 teeth on the ring gear, chances are it will not hit again for a while although it will eventually. If the end is tapered the starter can engage without jamming. This is not a proper repair but may prevent it from jamming again.

Other factory manuals (not Packard) say the ring gear teeth can be worn off up to 25% and no harm done. If they are worn down half way they recommend a new ring gear. I expect Packards are the same.

With 1/2 the strength of the original tooth lost, it's a crap shoot as to when the remaining fragment fails, but I suspect it will and probably at the most inopportune time and place. I'd rather fix it at a time and place of my own choosing, but as has been said, not a trivial job.