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"Congratulations that you also can keep your Packard on the road without a club. Did you ever try it without the internet ?"

Yes, Indian,Cushman,early 50's HD's, sidecars (a real obscurity), Rambler, Hudson, Jeep MB and early 50's Jeeps, James, Fords, Plymouths, Chevy's among several others WITHOUT any internet.

I got started on Packard, my first one, about the same time i started the Internet. 10 years ago or so. I was actualy looking for a Jag when the 56 Executive i have now pretty much fell out of the sky and into my lap. I had no clue about the internet nor how great an asset it would be for maintaning my modest stable of classics. If the internet had been available 30 years erlier then everyones collection would probably be quadrupled over what it is now.

Prior to the internet i dealt with some GREAT vendors and some bad ones among all of the different vehicles i owned. The problem is that news and experience traveled slowly before the I'net. However, nearly everyone aggreed as to who the good vendors were and who the not-so-good vendors were back then. So no, it's not like i just started car collecting 10 years ago. I go back further than that.

The Internet is HERE!!! Let the clubs and vendors OF ALL kinds DEAL WITH IT!

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Brian, Yes, I agree but let's do it in the gentlemanly tradition of Alvan MacCauley without rancour or childish name calling. We are, after all, Packard owners and should be above such behavior.

Keith -

I had joined PAC in 1981, looking to learn more about the cars and get an inside track on sources for parts and technical information. However, except for trading copies of some STB's with one member (and that was nearly two decades ago), I didn't get much more for my dues than a subscription to a couple of magazines.

I actually made most of my Packard acquisitions thanks to magazines like Cars & Parts and Hemmings Motor News, but most of all by walking the aisles at various swap meets. Sure, I've shopped at Perrysburg (only since 1990) and a couple of PAC Nationals held in OH (both over a decade ago), but that was nothing that any non-member couldn't have done.

The growing number of informal groups online tell me that the Internet has made some clubs a lot less significant - some even a lot less attractive. In fact, there was a group dedicated to GM's H-body cars of the 1970s that, several years ago, actually put it to a vote and decided that it would be better NOT to establish a formal club. Stale old clubs that are populated by too many snobs and control freaks are gonna fall by the wayside.

Dave -

In perfect world, we'd all get along and there be no need for name-calling, but neither the world nor the hobby will never be perfect.

So, when someone pokes a stick in a a virtual hornet's nest, they're gonna get stung, but you can't blame the hornets for defending their home in that case. It would be different if the hornets had gone on the offensive first.

All this just reminds me of the Gadsden flag from Revolutionary times, which incorporated the image a rattlesnake together with a motto that read "Don't Tread On Me".

I can't say that I'm sorry to see Katz stepping down as PAC's webmaster, but I doubt if we've heard the last of him or others of the same school of thought. Alas, if they seek to control what is said and goes on outside of their club, they're gonna be in for a nasty fight.

However, without further provocation, I suspect things will calm down to a more civil level.

Brian, I somewhat agree that the internet has made some aspects of old car ownership redundant. Certainly E-Bay and the internet in general has made parts sourcing so much easier than in the good ol' days where parts were usually aquired by long waits for letters to arrive and money orders sent etc. In the 1960 I restored a 1947 Cadillac then just an old car and in the 1980's, before the internet, I restored a 1947 Nash 600 Brougham and the processes was long and painstakingly slow but I found that the Nash Club was an almost essential resource but advise and parts were obtained by mail or over the phone. I joined the Packard Club in 1990 so that I could locate a Packard to buy and have been a member ever since. I consider myself more of a subscriber since I have only been to one meet and know of only one other member less than 200 miles away. As it turned out I found my car in the Old Car Trader not the club newsletter. Clubs certainly have a purpose but now I think it has mostly been relegated to social events rather than technical or parts source support groups. Many of the Packard Club members are either seniors or near that time and to many the internet is a mysterious place so a club in the traditional sense is very important to them. I am not a joiner and don't belong to any clubs. I find that egos and personality clashes get in the way of simply having fun. My hope is that this site, which in a way has become my club, will not deteriorate into a similar organization where past differences, grudges and personality clashes impinge on the comraderie of mutual enjoyment of our beloved Packards. Difference are surely to arise; it's human nature to do so, but in those rare cases let us please air our differences in a polite manner. comparing someone to Hitler or Stalin etc. is not conducive to rational debate.

Dave -

You and I actually have a lot in common in our Packard experiences.

I certainly enjoy the convenience of shopping online via eBay and other trusted sites, but still prefer to hit the swap meets so I can inspect goods in person. Alas, while swap meets, like Fall Hershey, used to be quite a treasure hunt, the cost of travel, lodging and parking is becoming a real obstacle, and it seems like the best stuff is being held back for eBay now. Then, Cars & Parts magazine, which I've subscribed to since 1978, isn't quite the read for me that it used to be, but Hemmings Motor News, which I dropped many years ago, actually seems to have become a more well-rounded and better-organized publication. Seems that things are gonna change even more in the years ahead.

Meanwhile, some clubs have learned how to embrace the Internet in a way that appeals to newcomers without alienating its longstanding members - and vice-versa. The undeniable fact is that the 'Net has brought more people together from across the miles - even around the globe - in a way that no club in the brick-n-mortar world ever could have before. Senior-aged Packard enthusiasts ought to give the Internet a try; they might just find that it's the next best thing to getting together at a meet.

Like you, I find politics and bureaucracy and egos to be a real turn off to the traditional club scene; I get enough of that in the workaday world. Although PackardInfo technically has members, I often think of it as something of an "un-club" - like Seven-Up was the "un-cola".

Yet, I believe that these recent comparsions made to infamous historical figures are the result of some extreme cases. Again, if those people will leave us in peace to do our own thing and pursue our interests in the hobby, I suspect that will be the end of that. There's plenty of room here for purists and rodders alike, but "carpetbaggers" should just keep out.

Of course, disagreements between people are bound to arise, but none of us have any control over human nature. Yet, I hope that no member here - new or old - will go stoking a fire that BigKev has to put out.

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Kev, Just as an update I did find a posting I made to the PAC Forum in Dec. 2007 where I linked it to this site. It wasn't deleted and is still in the archives.