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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#11
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Packard41
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JD - My '41 180 limo had sat in storage for close to 40 years and all the window mechanisms were frozen solid. As I wanted to keep the car as original as possible I decided to keep the hydraulic windows.

So here's how it's totaled up so far: New (or rebuilt) from Hydro-Electric: service window cylinders (4 @ $155.25 each), service solenoids (4 @ $149.50) plus 4 new hoses at $28.75 each and a window cylinder for the divider window at $189.

Upon receipt of all the above, adjustments had to be made. The ram shafts had to be cut to the correct length - about 2 ?" was removed from each ram shaft, also had to change wire ends on the solenoids. Another small problem was the window cylinders. The old cylinders had ball joints on push rods, the new ones are ridged rods. Spacers had to be made to get the alignment correct.

Meanwhile, Hydro-Electric tested the pump and found it had very low pressure and they proclaimed it "irrepairable." So I had to find another pump.

Six months passed and I had not found a pump. Then I called John Ulrich to see if perhaps he'd found anything since I'd last checked in with him and though he didn't, he did have the name of a '41 180 owner in Washington who had converted his car to roll-up windows. I called him and he kindly agreed to sell me his pump for $125. Upon receiving it Hydro-Electric said his pump had decent pressure but it leaked and they couldn't fix it. I asked them well since mine didn't leak could they put the two of them together and make one good pump. Nope, they couldn't because the two pumps were slightly different. Did they have any suggestions as now I had well over $2,000 invested in parts, rebuilding and labor. "Sure" they said, "You could have new parts machined for your pump." Argghh! Why didn't they tell me that back in the beginning!!! There is something odd in the way folks do business these days, they don't offer options for a problem unless you press them for alternatives. So $550 later I had a perfect pump.

But it still isn't working quite right yet. The pressure is factory perfect, there are no leaks, but some of the windows raise up very slow. It could be the return springs are too stiff or something else - new window channels to tight? Hmmm...we'll see.

So, after all of that I'm still glad I've kept the hydraulic windows. My car isn't concours, I won't be winning any shows but it's part of the car's history, it's a part of automotive history and a delightful example of an innovative process to bring about the luxury of automatic windows.

Good luck!

Neal

Posted on: 2010/11/18 1:33
'41 180 limo
'41 Henney Service Car
'41 Henney Landaulet
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#12
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JD in KC
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Neal,
I saw your other post in the For Sale/Wanted forum showing your 'deceased' pump. I noted that it looked different than the pump I had. I guess you have a model 4002 while I have a 4003 (actually 2 4003's). I did do a worst case calculation on what it would cost if I had to replace all the cylinders and solenoid regulators. That's why I want to be absolutely sure that the pump is going to put out the required pressure without leaking. If it doesn't, then I'll make a reasonable attempt to get the pump/motor fixed, but for me at some point the cost of restoring an archaic system to stay original needs to be balanced against better ways to spend the bucks, e.g., two-tone paint job, a good upholstery job, a new chrome coat for the Donut Chaser, decent plastics for the dash, WWW tires, wiring harnesses, headliner, new flat glass all the way around, etc., etc., etc.

A cost of $2,550.00 vs <$1000.00 for 5 linear actuators and even less for 2 two-door hot rod flat glass kits plus one linear actuator for the divider window all using a 12 volt battery in the trunk would require a lot of thought on my part.

I'm still hoping that the pump checks out and some of the cylinders/solenoids can be salvaged and re-used. I really do want to try and make this work and keep the car original and historically interesting but there are limits.

Whatever I end up doing, I have decided to stay with power windows because that's expected in a 1941 180.

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Posted on: 2010/11/18 2:44
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#13
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HH56
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Am curious if Hydro gave any other specs as to the pump operation. Northern Tool and others sell a line of small bi-directional pumps (roughly 3" square) in varying capacities. Looks a lot like those that appear on the original units. Since they are not integrated, it would take some kind of bracket and shaft adapter but might be something worth looking into if yours doesn't pass or can be repaired economically.

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Posted on: 2010/11/18 9:51
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#14
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JD in KC
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HH56,
I didn't discuss the motor/pump with hydro at all other than to ask if they carried a replacement o-ring for the pump/motor interface. They said no. I'm using Service Counselor Vol.14 No.19 for specs and information. It says: "The pump should deliver between 120 and 130 lbs. pressure with battery in reasonable state of charge, and in reverse direction will produce a vacuum of 15 to 18 inches of mercury."

I looked at the pumps on the Northern Tool website and it appears to me that all the pumps I saw were capable of producing 3000 psi. I think that could turn the windows into very efficient guillotines.

The surfaces that the pump gears ride on seem not to be very worn, just some minor rust pitting. I think there are only two places where leakage could occur; around the o-ring where the pump face meets the motor face, and I believe there is an inner seal that rides on the motor shaft. The seal is probably replaceable but if the shaft is damaged/corroded from the effects of brake fluid and time, I fear that would be a bigger problem. The shaft on the 'found' motor/pump was badly corroded. I'm going to disassemble and check the seal and shaft on the 'good' pump this afternoon. I'm off to run some errands and see what the selection of o-rings looks like locally. I'm pretty sure I can get an o-ring that will work on-line. I'm mostly concerned about the inner seal. I'll take some more pictures for Mal.

Posted on: 2010/11/18 11:15
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#15
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HH56
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I know the pressure output at max static condition as listed is high but a controlled fluid bypass or relief should be easily made. I was more concerned about the flow output and whether there would be enough to fill the cylinders to operate the windows in a reasonable time.

As to the guillotine, you have a point and almost anything is going to fall somewhat in that category--even the linear actuators.

Posted on: 2010/11/18 12:02
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#16
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Owen_Dyneto
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I'm guessing that the Northern Tool rating is at a much higher r.p.m. than the Packard motor turns? If the pump was in other respects easy to adapt, a plumbed bypass to reduce the net output pressure seems a possibility.

Posted on: 2010/11/18 12:03
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#17
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JD in KC
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Quote:

HH56 wrote:
... a controlled fluid bypass or relief should be easily made...

Owen_Dyneto wrote:
...a plumbed bypass to reduce the net output pressure seems a possibility...


Submitted less than a minute apart. Must be true what they say about great minds.
Thanks for all the input, it's really appreciated.

Posted on: 2010/11/18 17:29
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#18
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flackmaster
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This may be too little too late, but I just picked up a factory power window setup removed from a parts car many years ago. most everything except the solenoids and window switches. Just got it, haven;t completely inventoried or photo's yet.. will be looking to sell the whole box...

Posted on: 2010/11/18 17:35
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#19
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JD in KC
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Flackmaster, thanks but unless there's a pristine armature shaft in that box, I probably have enough parts to cobble together a complete system.

Having disassembled the 'found' motor/pump to a greater degree than the motor pump I plan on using, I got a much better idea of how the thing works. Based on my new knowledge, I pulled the pump off the 'good' assembly to check the seal and shaft behind the pump mounting plate.

The seal was in bad shape and the shaft had rust and chunks of seal material stuck to it. The design of the pump had the section of the shaft between the pump and motor lubricated by brake fluid delivered through a small hole drilled through the face of the pump mounting plate. The seal keeps the fluid from entering the motor. I guess letting the seal and shaft sit in brake fluid and water for a good many years isn't the best situation.

I can get a new seal but I'm concerned with the condition of the shaft. Any thoughts?

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Posted on: 2010/11/19 1:20
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Re: JD's 1941 180 Limousine
#20
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JD in KC
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On second thought, I wonder if that drilled passage is there to allow accumulated fluid behind the mounting plate to return to the system?

Posted on: 2010/11/19 9:20
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