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I have a 1929, 6 series 320 engine and have a question about the water pump. I have removed and stripped the side mounted water pump and the fan pully assembly and can see that the water pump body will actually fit into the housing on the front of the motor. I know that the 1929 engine had the side mounted water pump as there was not enough room between the front of the engine and the radiator until they changed things in 1930. I will be moving my engine back in the chassis for my speedster project so wonder if I should refit the water pump body into the front of the engine as that would tidy things up and I will have the room, and it does fit. I am assuming that there is a baffle plate or something similar in the water jacket of the 1930 engine behind the where the water pump fits to ensure the correct flow of water through the pump impeller. There is no such baffle in my 1929 water jacket as it was unnecessary without the pump being there.
I am assuming the water jacket castings are the same for 1929 and 1930 on the 320 engine, and hopefully only a baffle plate or something similar is all I need. Can someone with experience of the 1930 water pump and the water jacket area where it sits, let me know their thoughts on my proposed repositioning of my water pump to front of engine.
Cheers Mal

Mal,
I have two 1929 6th Series Standard eights both with front mounted water pumps. I have only seen the side mounted units and have no experience with them but I cannot see how you could adapt the side mounted pump into the front mounted location assuming that location on your engine is made for a front mounted pump like mine. Your comment " and can see that the water pump body will actually fit into the housing on the front of the motor " suggests that your block has a blanked off opening for a front mounted pump. As I recall it the side mounted pump is a completely different pump, it has a conventional external gland nut for the seal whereas the front mounted pump has a gland nut "internal" out of sight that is adjusted with a small rod inserted through a slot ( usually takes a few attempts to achieve the desired result).
The belt tension is achieved by rotating the pump, which is eccentric to the opening, in the block.
I am not sure I understand your question about the baffle, on my cars there is a baffle that is an integral part of the block behind the pump, if your car has the opening for the front mounted pump then you would expect that it would also have the baffle.
I regard the front mounted water pump on the '29 Standard eights as their worst feature I have often wished my cars had side mounted pumps that are easily adjusted or removed.
David

Thanks for your reply, David. From my reading of Packard books, I understand that the first of the 6 series std eight had a front mounted water pump which was shorter than the standard water pumps used before, and later on the 7 series. Hence having to adjast gland nut etc through a hole in the pulley. The Kimes bible also says that the radiator had to be tilted forward just to change the fanbelt so the change to the side mounted water pump was done by Packard. The water pump fitted to the side mounted housing seems to be a larger water pump (I mean longer like a 'normal' water pump)with easy access to gland nut and grease nipple. I assume this pump is similar to the 5 series and 7 series. Where your short water pump fits into the front of the block, my engine has a plate with a pulley that will adjust up and down to help in fanbelt tension. Where this fits on my engine is exactly the same size - 4 1/2" I think, as the water pump, so I was thinking about fitting my bigger water pump back onto the front of the engine, as I will have plenty of room as I am moving the engine back in the chassis. I just need to know any details of baffles. David, are you saying that the baffle behind your water pump is cast into the block? I could make up a baffle if I knew it position and size. Any more suggestions? Cheers Mal

Mal,
I haven't replied earlier because the site was down.
There is a cavity in the front of the block that receives the water pump. Water enters the pump from the side of the block , through a slot into the back of the pump. The "baffle" I referred to is the part of the block that forms the back of the cavity. I have an old block that I photographed to show this cavity so you can compare it with yours.
The water from the pump passes though another slot on the side of the block and enters the water distribution plate that directs it along the side of the block to the outlets adjacent to each cylinder.
I am still having difficulty understanding how you could adapt the external pump to this location, unless you are simply relocating it to the front of the block but leaving it external.
The only way I could envisage a front mounted pump arrangement is with an original front mounted pump, something I would want to avoid!
As to the other point about when these pumps were introduced, I had understood the side pump came first but I can't recall the source of that information however I just checked the engine number on the car that I know of with a side pump and its engine number is lower than both of my cars with front pumps.
Also, to remove the fan belt it is necessary to remove the radiator but that is not because of the water pump, its to clear the harmonic balancer.
The Standard Eight was fitted into the engine bay for a 6 cylinder and it is a very tight fit, back and front.
My attempt to attach the photos failed, I will try a PM
David

Mal,
Failed again, if you PM me I will try replying with photos, I need you full e-mail address so I can reply by G mail.
Photo management on the computer is not my thing!
David

Hi David, thanks for your reply - I have just PM'd you.

I would love to know the real story about the side mounted vs the front mounted water pumnp on 626 cars. I have read two contradictory stories. Beverly Rae Kimes book, which many people call the Packard 'bible', states on page 285: "The pump at the front of the block had to be compressed,[/b] leaving no space for the Alemite fitting to grease the fan and water pump bearing, this solved by providing a hole in the fan hub to receive an Alemite fitting which would have to be removed and a pipe plug screwed in. "Important", warned the Information Book, Do not leave the Alemite fitting in pulley as it tends to throw the assembly out of balance. A small point to dwell upon, perhaps, but a clue to big trouble. The fan belt could not be replaced except by loosening and tilting the radiator forward, rather a chore. Packard was soon aware of it's mistake and changed the pump location mid-model to a left side position on the bottom radiator hose. The following year the engine would be relocated, twinfan belts installed and the redesigned pump put back into it's original position." This paragraph would indicate that the front mounted water pump came first and the side mount water pump was Packard's fix for the rest of the model year. Now consider the statement in the Turquist book which on page 41 which states: "The first standard eights had a side mounted water pump to save space between the fan and the radiator. The pump proved very unsatisfactory and a conventional pump was installed after two months of production." This short statement by Turquist contradicts Kimes, by indicating that the side mounted pump came first, and the front mounted pump was was then fitted to later models in the year. Which is correct? Looking at some engine numbers, it does appear that the earlier engine number seen to have the side mounted water pump with later engine numbers having the front mounted pump. I would love to hear from drivers of both types of pump as to the effectiveness of the cooling provided by each type of watrer pump. Please let us know your experiences. Cheers Mal

Mal,
The conflict between the two experts is interesting, let's hope a few 6th series owners give some feedback on the subject.
Another error that intrigues me is the cross section drawings of the 6th Series Standard Eight engines in the owners handbook, the parts list book. Both drawing show a front mounted water pump with external gland nut identical to the earlier models, also the harmonic balancer is mounted behind the fan pulley which is incorrect, the harmonic balancer bolts to the front of the fan pulley. They used the drawing from an earlier motor and failed to revise it to show the changes made to the 6th series motors. Just a bit of trivia.
We have toured extensively over many years in company with the car with the side pump which is a 626 and I am not aware of it having any serious overheating problems. They all tend to overheat in hot weather on long climbs especially if they have the original or replacement honeycomb radiators. Modern radiator cores are much better. I do not believe that water pump flow is significant in cooling, its the surface area of the radiator and the airflow across it that governs the cooling. I believe both pumps would give adequate water flow despite the fact that they are both little more that open paddles. However if I watch the water through the filler opening in the radiator the flow is quite vigorous on mine .
I have juts sent you 2 photos.
David

With apologies to those already bored by the trivial question of which style of water pump came first on the 6th Series cars it just dawned on me that the obvious source for an answer would be the Packard Parts List which usually gives the engine number cut off for changes introduced in a model year.
However a search under "Motor water pump assembly" reveals nothing, in fact it only lists one pump part number for the 626/633 cars - #158310 and no illustration to show which style. So there must have been some confusion when a customer ordered a new water pump for his front mounted unit and received a side mounted pump or vice versa.
Production in 1929 was at an all time high, they must have been so busy a few things slipped by.
Enough on this matter?

Quote:

I doubt it was just early water pumps. Too bad we don't have more of the early service letters from the era to see how they might have identified different running changes.

In later years Packard used many suffixes, assorted symbols, dabs of paint and various combinations of those markings to mark differences -- sometimes significant changes affecting how something was to be serviced. The poor service guy had to be a genius to remember to look for them -- let alone remember what they meant if he ran across one or what bulletin to refer to if he didn't.