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(1) 2 »

Overdrive wiring issue
#1
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Jim Kavanagh
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I have an R9 on my 41 120. Both Overdrive and Electromatic Clutch. Both the OD and EC have always worked.
I recently changed out the OD solenoid. I did mark the wiring, but it is not impossible that I messed up.

Once changed out, the new solenoid operated only a few times and then would no longer engage. Afterward, I could not engage the solenoid by grounding the OD wire at the governor. I then replaced the solenoid with the original one.

When changing the solenoid, I noted that the EC wire on the governor was quite loose, so I screwed in the screw to tighten the wire. When done, as soon as I pushed in the OD dash lever, I could hear the solenoid click and engage (this is while ildeling, or even with the engine off, but the key on) and the indicator light on the dash would light.

At this point, the dash knob was completing the circuit, so the governor switch had to be grounded. Obviously, I did not reverse or move the car with the solenoid so engaged.

After puzzling for a day, I pulled the EC terminal screw at the governor (that I had screwed in to tightened) and noted it was very long - probably longer than an inch. I think that tightening it down actually grounded the unit due to the length. I replaced it with a shorter one, and now I get no engagement when I push the OD dash knob in (and the indicator light stays out), so, at stand still, the solenoid is not engaged. Unfortunatey, I also do not get any engagement after I hit 18 MPH (and no indicator light), or at any speed.

The other condition I noted with the long screw completely turned in was that the middle contact on the EC relay unit would engage as soon as I engaged the battery with everything else off - including the key. I have a kill switch and tested this several times. I could do nothing, except remove the EC unit fuse, to stop this from happening as soon as the battery power was provided.

Now that the shorter screw is in the governor, This contact no longer energizes when I provide battery power.

The EC unit does work fine, so I feel that the governor is working, although the solenoid does not energize under operation. It did on my bench before I re-installed it.

I tested the continuity of the wiring between the OD relay and the solenoid. Contacts 2 and 3 seem to be wired as shown in the OD training manual, however, the 4 and 6 terminals may be reversed. I know the wiring is correct at the relay, and believe it is correct at the solenoid, that is it is as it has always been, but again, I could be wrong.

What would be the effect if these two wires are switched? Can I reverse these without risking damage to the unit?
Just because grounding the governor earlier and having that grounding result in the solenoid pull-in and hold-in circuits working, it makes me think that the issue of not now engaging at speed is related to the governor. But I am not sure if that logic holds up.

This is obviously an electric issue, any other thoughts as to the cause of the current situation?

Posted on: 2019/4/2 0:05
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#2
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Ross
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A picture of your governor would be helpful. Is it possible that the screw you replaced was actually the adjusting screw for the governor cut-in speed? That should not have a wire attached to it, but many things have happened since 1941.

Posted on: 2019/4/2 7:31
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#3
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HH56
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Quote:
I tested the continuity of the wiring between the OD relay and the solenoid. Contacts 2 and 3 seem to be wired as shown in the OD training manual, however, the 4 and 6 terminals may be reversed. I know the wiring is correct at the relay, and believe it is correct at the solenoid, that is it is as it has always been, but again, I could be wrong.

What would be the effect if these two wires are switched? Can I reverse these without risking damage to the unit?
Just because grounding the governor earlier and having that grounding result in the solenoid pull-in and hold-in circuits working, it makes me think that the issue of not now engaging at speed is related to the governor. But I am not sure if that logic holds up.


I think Ross has the right assumption that the screw you were working with has messed up the calibration of the governor. Providing there has been no damage you might be able to get it back in a workable condition but the contact action is delicate and could have been bent. There was a caution issued by the factory that the field should not mess with calibration as it took special equipment to calibrate them so getting yours back may take some time as you will need to drive, adjust and drive again until it is in a good range. In 40 they issued 3 governor backs calibrated at different speeds to accommodate different models and user preferences. In 41 they settled on one range but also advised the field that the earlier backs were compatible and if they had a customer that insisted on a different range they could use one of the differently calibrated items.

As to the question on reversed wiring it is possible that could be the cause of no solenoid but I would concentrate on the governor first.
OD Relay contact functions:
1 Power in
2. Ign cut out to coil
3. Power out to solenoid HOLD coil
4. Power out to solenoid PULL IN coil
5. Ground in from governor in series with other switches to pull in relays
6. Ign cut out from solenoid contacts.

If OD relay terminals 4 and 6 are reversed there would be power fed to a set of contacts used in the ign cutout circuit in the solenoid if the relay was energized. With no power going to solenoid terminal 4 the solenoid would not be able to pull in so the cutout contacts should be open and there would be no damage unless for some reason the cutout contacts were misadjusted or damaged in some other way. If that were the case there would be a direct short when the relay energized. You didn't say if you used a meter or a visual check to see if the wires were reversed. Visually the colors may have faded but the wire on relay 4 going to solenoid 4 should be larger than the wire on 6. Electrically with the meter, unless they were disconnected when testing there could be some feedback thru other components which might be clouding the issue.

OD and EC circuits both rely on the governor grounding the wire but operate at different times. When the car is stationary the wire on the governor labeled EC in the photo is grounded and the wire labeled OD is just sitting open. That allows the clutch electrics to be active and provide vacuum to operate the mechanism so the clutch can do its thing. The OD is inactive because its relays are not pulled in. When the car reaches the set speed the contacts in the governor switch state so EC is now sitting open while OD is grounded. That action disables the EC and provides a signal thru other switches to terminal 5 of the OD relay. Relay energizes and provides power out to terminal 4 and thru the other relay coil in the box out to terminal 3 to bring in the solenoid. Both terminals need power out to the solenoid in order for the solenoid to engage. No power to 4 and there is no pull in coil so the solenoid cannot engage. No power to 3 and the pull in coil will bring the solenoid in until the motion makes the pull in contacts in the solenoid open and the coil drops out. Without the hold coil energized by 3 to keep the plunger out the cycle will repeat and the solenoid will "machine gun". The power out at relay 4 also provides power to the indicator light that the car is at speed. Does the light come on? Assuming the bulb and other wiring is good, if it does not then the governor ground signal is not reaching the relay and you can suspect calibration. If it does light then look to miswiring or another problem.

Prewar EC electrics are somewhat complex compared to the postwar EC and adds an additional wrinkle to the governor wiring because the EC also uses the OD wire signal to indicate when the car has reached cruising speed. That action energizes a relay in the EC box and brings other parts of the EC into play so the clutch can be made active at a specific time when cruising and you want to downshift. Not sure where the wiring is joined so both EC and OD can take advantage of the OD governor signal.

In the photos below, the proper adjustment screw is on the left (covered by tar in the R9 photo) and the contact terminal is on the right. There is a caveat in that the screw the wire attaches to threads into the base and normally is not touched. These governors have a locking nut on the terminal screw so the screw isn't threaded in too far. If that was the screw moved then on the bottom photo of the broken governor you can see that the extra length inside the governor can affect the adjustment and also move the fixed contact inward so as to prevent the switch moving contacts from making the proper action. That could provide a permanent connection to ground for EC and really change the point OD connects.

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Posted on: 2019/4/2 10:12
Howard
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#4
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Jim Kavanagh
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I took the cover off the Governor today (of course did not have the presence of mind to snap a picture) and it does look like the screw in question does adjust or at least affect the top most point in the point set. Now that I see how it operates, I can see that screwing it in probably forced the points closed. Does not look like anything is bent, but getting the gap back correctly could be a problem. I can probably confirm that the governor is the issue by screwing this down again to close the points and using the dash knob to engage the solenoid once I am up to speed. Sounds like there is an opportunity for disaster in that scenario if I forget to disengage it.

I attach a picture of the outside of the cover. I may have an extra cover, but I don't think the adjustment screw would already be pre-set.

I replaced the screw with the old one and added a nut to spin down and secure the wire, but I do not have a sense for the initial gap.

I do have a lift, so I believe I could have someone run the car up to about 20 MPH and I could screw in the adjuster until I get engagement. Sounds kind of nerve racking to me, but it might be the only way to get the adjustment close.

One thing I noted today. When I ground the OD at the governor, I get the solenoid triggering when the key is OFF as well as when it is ON. Shouldn't this only work when the key is in the ON position?

Ross - I think the screw is the issue. Although it looks, from the outside, like the screw would not adjust the points, I took the cover off and can see that the screw does directly adjust the top point of the set. When I first got the car, the OD did not work and the Packard guys at Custom Auto in So Cal made it work. Maybe this was a fix they made?

HH - Thanks for all the info. The inside of my cover is a little different, but I can see how the points engage.

I traced the wires by disconnecting all the wires at the solenoid and at the relay, and then simply checking continuity. This is about as sophisticated as I get with auto electrics. But I do think it was a clean test, since I disconnected everything.

When I accidentally grounded the governor, the dash light was on and brite. It has always worked in the past. Once I put everything back (but with incorrect point gap) the light does not go on and the solenoid does not attempt tp engage, at least, I can't hear it do anything.

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Posted on: 2019/4/2 20:33
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#5
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HH56
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Quote:
One thing I noted today. When I ground the OD at the governor, I get the solenoid triggering when the key is OFF as well as when it is ON. Shouldn't this only work when the key is in the ON position?

R9s are powered all the time so relay will energize whenever the governor or the wire from the governor provides a ground. That was one of the problems with R9s and the reverse lockup issue. If something happened to the governor or the wire from it was shorted the OD solenoid would activate. If reverse was selected while the solenoid is engaged the OD planetary and overrunning clutch fight each other and can lock up so the car won't move. Adding more power to try to make the car move in that condition usually resulted in OD damage. As a preventative on postwar cars, Packard added a reverse safety switch in the 6v input wire to the relay so when reverse was selected the power to the OD was cut and solenoid was forced to drop out if it had accidentally engaged. The switch could be added to prewar cars if the OD was one which was known to have had the issue and the customer wanted to buy it. The R11 is completely different mechanically and electrically and relay coil is powered by the ign switch. When the key is off on an R11 the relay and solenoid will not energize.

The screw you moved also provides one of the contacts of the switch. Moving it pushes against the switch mechanism and will also affect calibration just as the normal adjustment screw does. I think your governor back is probably identical because the one I posted photos of has the OD portion of the contact broken off due to whatever reason. The OD contact would normally have one end rest against the adjustment screw and attaches to the piece of brass sort of sitting by itself on the other.

Here is the governor with the OD contact sitting where it should be and lifted off to see the movable portion of the switch which rests under it. The screw you moved is directly below the movable piece.

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Posted on: 2019/4/2 21:25
Howard
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#6
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Jim Kavanagh
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Thank you for the info on the "always powered" state of the OD. I am not sure that I ever noticed this before.

I think I have a couple ways to proceed.

I can advance the screw until I have contact and then back it off a little and then check the engagement speed. Then adjust a little at a time. I assume the further out I go, the higher the engagement speed? Right now, I get no engagement at any speed.

I can ground it and use the OD knob on the dash to make sure everything else is working, OD engaging , etc., then try to adjust the engagement speed as above. I just need to make sure I engage it going forward and remember to disengage it when I slow up significantly. I only need to move the OD knob a small amount, so I would not be engaging the lockout with the knob.

If none of that works satisfactorily, I can source a rebuilt governor.

The way the unit works, it looks like there is no way to gap the points with the unit off line to adjust.

Have you adjusted the unit on the car before? Any advice as to how to approach it?

Thank you for your help.

Posted on: 2019/4/3 11:38
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#7
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Jim Kavanagh
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I found that I had a spare Governor in my garage, so I used the top plate off that unit, rather than switching the entire unit.

Everything now works as it should, except that the dash light goes on when the solenoid kicks in, but does not go out after it has engaged. It has in the past.

Other than that, the units shifts nicely into OD and back out as i slow down.

I think the shift speed is maybe a little lower than i am used to.

Posted on: 2019/4/3 18:51
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#8
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HH56
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Good to hear the OD is working.

Check the wiring to terminal 7 (front side of solenoid) at the solenoid and make sure the terminal did not get bent and is touching the case.

When the relay energizes to power the solenoid it also provides power to the lamp turning it on. When the solenoid has fully extended and the pawl is pushed solidly into the sun gear a contact inside the solenoid opens and turns the light off.

For the lamp to stay on probably one of three things is happening. Since the OD is working the most likely cause is somehow the wire to 7 has shorted or the terminal was bent during the checks and is touching the case. If that is OK then the other likely causes is the contact inside the solenoid is not opening either due to it being damaged or the solenoid is not making a full stroke.

Posted on: 2019/4/3 19:25
Howard
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#9
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Jim Kavanagh
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Following up on the solenoid I installed and which failed almost immediately. It was a rebuilt sold by a Packard shop.

When I pulled the cap off the solenoid, the plunger shaft had extended all the way to the top of the cap, and the force of the plunger action had actually moved the two point contacts to either side of the shaft. It was still extended when I pulled it apart. The shaft can be moved (under pressure) beyond what should be its resting position. I am not sure what should prevent this, other than the operation of the solenoid. Is there an actual hard stop?

This resulted in bending the arms that hold the points to an extent that they no longer both break when the shaft moves inward and also close the small points that I think turn off the dash light.

This solenoid worked only two or three times when I installed it, and that was it. I assume at that point, the shaft shorted by contact to the cap, you can see the burn marks in the cap in one of the pictures.

I am not sure, but I think the shaft is just a bit shorter than in my other solenoid, because I can install my other solenoid without energizing it after I pull out the pawl, but this one I must energize. Unfortunately, I did not measure the length on my other solenoid before I re-installed it.

Is this just a bad rebuild, or is there possibly something else going on?

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Posted on: 2019/4/17 12:18
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#10
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HH56
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Definitely something wrong with the small extension that actuates the contacts. It should only extend out from the round stop that hits against the contact support at the rear of travel by approx 5/16 inch and the tip clears the contact support by about 1/8 inch to touch and move the contacts when at rest. Yours looks to have approx 1/2 - 3/4 inch of extension.

Not sure what fastens all of that together as I have not disassembled a solenoid that far but am thinking it might unscrew in some fashion to make the plunger shaft, stop and contact extension an assy to allow for separation for service or assembly. If the solenoid came from one of our vendors I would think a phone call at the least is in order. Maybe something came unscrewed or maybe a wrong part was installed during the rebuild.

The R9 plunger length out of the case is approx 2 1/4 so at least that part is good and it is the correct solenoid. The R11 plunger resting length is just shy of an inch long and the major reason solenoids are not interchangeable. Total travel of the R9 plunger when extended is a little over 3/8 inch and am guessing the R11 is the same.

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Posted on: 2019/4/17 13:02
Howard
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