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Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#1
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Jerry
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Just wanted to share a little information to all of you who are doing an engine swap or restoring your cars and do not realize that Packard's are titled to the engine number. If the engine has been changed and the title not updated you could have a problem if it ever get stolen or you go to sell it.
I bring this up as a reminder because I didn't realize this and almost sold the engine that was in the car. I know have to take the chassis that is stripped with the engine in it to the State Patrol to get a new vin number assigned to the title. They said they will probably use the anti theft number as the vin number. This isn't correct per their books but they said they would do that until I bring it back restored with the new engine in it. At that time they will reinspect it and assign the new engine number as the vin number for the title.
It makes me wonder how many titles actually match the correct engine number

Posted on: 5/26 10:49
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#2
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Gerard O'Keefe
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Most states in my area (NJ) use the VN. On your 41 it would be on the VN plate on the firewall.

Posted on: 5/26 11:42
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #
#3
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HH56
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At least your DMV inspector is willing to work with you and the engine swap in trying to keep things mostly original. Some are not as lucky.

Fun times back then when some states would use the engine number and others used the vehicle number -- both removable. My 47 has the original engine and patent plate with the correct vehicle number and had old paperwork but the car fell out of the Calif DMV system when it was not registered for years. It had to be inspected before it could be re-registered.

The car was bought by a friend before I got it and when he went to register the car he said the Calif hiway patrol inspector took the old paperwork but totally ignored it. Inspector said he would only use the body ID or thief proof number because that was the only number on the car that could not be removed or changed.

In other documented cases on various forums there have been some strange numbers found. No one knew where they came from but speculation has been they were assigned by the state DMV -- most likely due to service engines being installed.

Posted on: 5/26 11:46
Howard
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#4
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PackardDon
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Same here in California. As a VIN verifier, I would use the engine number (or tamper proof number) as a last resort.

Posted on: 5/26 11:47
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#5
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Fish'n Jim
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Every state does it different as there was no unified VIN system prior to 1964. eg: GA never issued titles only registration. I applied for a new title for the "P" in my state which came from GA and the policeman that did the inspection used whatever he wanted.
Once it got to the state it got delayed because they could find no record for such a vehicle number. But ultimately I prevailed.
eg2:We found OH back in the 30s used the date the car was titled as the model year. As model years often were released on the fiscal year, you might have a title for the "wrong" year car and be legit if it originate there.
eg3: my Cad pre-64 also, has the same engine number as VIN number and is a series 62 coupe but no such designation on the state paperwork, so they call it a "coupe deVille" which came in '64, even those it's not. Someone could take advantage be unscrupulous and palm it off for more $ as the title says it is. If one didn't know that or what to look for and the engine was changed, it still has a valid VIN plate in the door. But they code those early VINs with model letters. Cad used series designation for trim levels for a couple decades. "P" used "series" but completely different meaning. Cad changed models every year and no carry overs unlike "P".
So one has to be careful and know what the state and manufacturer rules/designations are not just go by your state and assume it's right.
Once they went to 17 digits, not usually a problem.

Posted on: 5/27 13:55
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#6
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Phil Randolph
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My 38 has a decal on the firewall with the VIN but "magically" the number became stamped on the frame rail near the steering box

Posted on: 5/28 6:50
1938 1601 Club Coupe
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#7
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BigKev
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Wherever possible, I'd have the car re-titled using the Vehicle Number. It's the number that gives us the most information that is similar to a modern VIN.

It identifies the exact body model, year, and sequential production number.

None of the other numbers give you anything close, and any records that would have correlated are kaput.

Engine number gives you a year and engine type/CID but could be applicable to several models, and as we know can get swapped if an engine is not economically rebuildable vs a swap.

The Theft proof number can give us a rough year or range but are they are no a fast and quick reference that can be a guaranteed answer.

So with all that in mind, the VN is the only one that can give you info about the car, with just that number, and is decypherable.

Posted on: 6/2 8:57
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#8
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away

Jerry
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I spent yesterday morning at the State Patrol vin inspection station.
They decided to use both the vin plate number and the anti theft number on the firewall

The reasoning behind the decision was the Vin plate tells what the car is but it’s held on with 4 screws. The anti theft number is permanent.
By using both they felt it was a way to tie the vin to the body that it was attached to.
They removed the engine number from the state records and said to get a notarized bill of sale for both the buyer and myself when I sell the old motor. That way they won’t have any issues when they reregister their car with that engine number

Posted on: 6/2 10:09
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#9
Not too shy to talk
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1929PackardGuy
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That sounds more logical. I've never heard of any car being titled by the engine ID number, that's just asking for trouble. Even when they were newer, what were you supposed to do if you had to replace the engine? And what good did it do you to have a VIN tag attached to the car if they were going to title it with an easily removable part? That just doesn't make any sense.

Posted on: 6/4 10:39
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Re: Car Titles, engine numbers and vin #'s
#10
Not too shy to talk
Not too shy to talk

1887mike
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I have 2 packards registered in CA and both registered different. My 38 junior is with the vin decal # even though the decal was not present when purchased. Then I perchased a 37 senior that was dormant and not in records. CA sent me to a CHP registration office and insisted on using the engine # even though they agreed it did not make sense. The vin plate was in place and looked as if not tampered with. I was told that was their guidelines. I tried to reason with them showing my registered 38 packard slip but to no avail?

Attach file:



jpg  20180319_183636.jpg (305.95 KB)
6226_60ba568e17bf1.jpg 1920X1080 px

Posted on: 6/4 11:36
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