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356ci Engine Stalls
#1
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

Pappy47
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I have a 47 Custom Super Eight Clipper in overall good condition. (356ci engine was replaced in 1950. Valve job done a few years ago.) Lately, the engine stalls as I prepare to stop. It will crank back up pretty well & sometimes attempts to recrank on it's own, I've noticed! It has a modern 3 way switch installed on dash, left of steering wheel. I tried adjusting idle speed up by 1/4 but that had no effect. Not long ago, oil bath filter was dripping oil on distributor wires, also. Not sure if any connection there though?

Thanks very much for your wise counsel!

Posted on: 2021/8/6 17:19
Pappy47
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#2
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Ozstatman
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G'day Pappy47,
to PackardInfo.

I invite you to include your '47 Custom Super Eight Clipper in the Packard Vehicle Registry.

Unfortunately I can't assist with your query, but someone who can should be along soon.

Posted on: 2021/8/6 23:43
Mal
/o[]o\
====

Bowral, Southern Highlands of NSW, Australia
"Out of chaos comes order" - Nietzsche.

1938 Eight Touring Sedan - SOLD

1941 One-Twenty Club Coupe - SOLD

1948 Super Eight Limo, chassis RHD - SOLD

1950 Eight Touring Sedan - SOLD

What's this?
Put your Packard in the Packard Vehicle Registry!
Here's how!
Any questions - PM or email me at ozstatman@gmail.com
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#3
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HH56
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When you say it "tries to recrank on its own". Do you mean the starter motor actually tries to start electrically without touching anything or just that the car is still in motion and the engine tries to restart. Does the car have overdrive and was that in use when the engine dies?

If still in motion and in gear, a restart attempt is to be expected because the wheels are still connected to the motor so will attempt to turn the engine. If in overdrive, does the engine die when overdrive is locked out. If it tries to start electrically, that brings up questions on the starting method used. With the new ign switch, If it still has the accelerator pedal start then with the engine dying vacuum is gone and the starter switch mechanism on the carburetor will be able to be engaged by the pedal again. Could you possibly be pumping the gas trying to keep the engine running and move the pedal down far enough the starter switch can be pushed and engage the starter. If you have some other starting method then would need more details.

Am curious about the new ign switch. Does the new switch have a start position or does it just have the ACC, OFF, and RUN positions. If it is a later Packard 3 position switch it would have a different bezel from the 47 stock bezel. The 47 bezel was a round chromed and smooth about 3/8 wide straight sided cylinder like piece that screws onto the switch to hold it in the dash. Packard 3 position switches from 23rd series 49s-53 would have a differently shaped stamped sheetmetal bezel with a thin side going against the dash and tapering out to a deep rounded center. The Packard switches could carry 6v current without problems but if some aftermarket switch was installed which might have been designed for 12v, there is a question if the higher 6v current might be stressing the switch. If it overheats and intermittently loses contact that could cause the engine to die.

The air cleaner should never be dripping oil so presuming there is no damage to the bottom bowl where oil could drip out, the logical explanation would be there is or was too much oil in the bowl and it sloshed over. If that is the issue the oil level could still be high enough that the filter element is so oil soaked air is having a hard time getting thru. If the engine cannot get enough air to run properly it will stall just as if the choke was closed. I would also expect the engine to be running quite rich with a very black exhaust if that were the case.

Posted on: 2021/8/7 10:01
Howard
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#4
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Fish'n Jim
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Check for a vacuum leak. Could be the carb/fuel system needs attention, if timing and everything else ignition is good.
If they didn't bypass the carb starter switch, there maybe some issue as HH indicates. Gotta know what you're doing when you convert one of these systems. I just by-pass with a jumper.
I like to have voltage, vacuum, and fuel pressure gauges on these old generator cars, so I can see what's going on. They don't come with that and what they have is not much use.

Posted on: 2021/8/7 20:25
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#5
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

Pappy47
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Thank you, Ozstatman - I am behind in getting my car registered and will endeavor to do that very thing!

Posted on: 2021/8/7 23:17
Pappy47
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#6
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

Pappy47
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Howard, thank you for these in depth Q's! I am reply with some photos that I trust will be helpful to show you both the look of the ignition switch & area surrounding the carb.

RE: the auto restart, the car would in fact be in overdrive and moving when car attempts to restart on it's own versus still. To my knowledge, the floor starter is gone or at the least disengaged - I've never used nor attempted it. I only use the modern ignition switch on dash I mentioned. See photos.

Candidly, I have no idea if dash ignition switch is correct 6 volt or not. Was as you see it when I bought it last August 2020. (you don't know what you don't know!)

The car's previous owner told me that it would take 8-10 +/- gas pedal pumps to get the car to start. To me this was excessive and too much wear & tear on linkages etc so began a diff apporach. Some locals suggested using electric fuel pump to prime the carb/"fill the bowl" & then shut it off when car started. Trial & error led me to this approach. I turn ignition switch to ACC & turn fuel pump on & let run avg of 20-25 seconds then pump gas pedal twice. This usually would get car to start right up. However, the car would sag and almost sputter at times on inclines so my mechanic suggested I leave fuel pump on at all times since only 3-4 psi used, when driving and sure enough it all but stopped this sputtering. (he had car to install resurfaced clutch plate & rear pinion seal.)

Prior to my leaving fuel pump on after starting, I would shut it off. AS car warmed up, the RPM's climb higher & higher but once smoothed out I would kick it back down to low idle so not run rich very long. (For quite a while but not much at all lately, there was dark brown almost black spray pattern on driveway below exhaust - could be just rust in exhaust?)

The stalling started occuring about 1.5 months ago. Car will generally start and drive fine with good overal power but will stall when coming to a stop.

For the first time in quite a while, I had problems this very morning getting car started to get to Cruise-in. It took a few times holding gas pedal all the way down to get it to turn over & start.

Also, after I got back home I noticed pretty strong gas vapor smell coming from car. It has been several months since I've had this issue.

Regarding the oil bath air cleaner I need to gird my loins and deal with it! I will get after it and take a look at it more in depth and see what I can find out about oil level.

Thanks!

Posted on: 2021/8/8 1:03
Pappy47
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#7
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

Pappy47
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Thank you that explains why I see the guages!

I forgot to mention to Howard that a well respected Packard collector said he heard it missing today when he stood by and I cranked it up.

Posted on: 2021/8/8 1:06
Pappy47
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#8
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

Pappy47
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2ND ATTEMPT: photos attached of Ignition Switch & carb.

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Posted on: 2021/8/8 1:34
Pappy47
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#9
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HH56
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Most concerning is what appears to be fuel leaks all over the carburetor. It could be old age or something has happened internally and the carb is in need of a rebuild. You also mentioned what I am taking to be a recent addition of an electric fuel pump. If one was installed which is producing too much pressure that could certainly be causing the issue. The car does not have the optional fuel filter installed next to the carb so unless there is a filter hidden somewhere else in the line between the electric pump and before the carb any electric pump providing more than approximately 5 psi (without having an additional pressure regulator) could be forcing the float valve off its seat. Excess fuel could be flooding the carb and causing the stall. There are 6v pumps that provide 2.5-4.5 psi which work well for systems without filters and some that provide 5-8 psi that are more appropriate for cars with the filters. The extra pressure helps to push gas thru the old ceramic filter pores but gets reduced by the filter before it reaches the carb. The type and pressure output of your pump would be something to check closely.

On the air cleaner, definitely check the filter element to make sure it is not excessively wet with oil and make sure the oil level is no higher than the fill line stamped in the side of the bowl.

The ignition switch appears to be aftermarket and the old saying you get what you pay for is most appropriate. There are cheap junk switches and some of decent quality sitting side by side in the parts stores. Frequently the only obvious difference is several $$. If that switch has been on for a decent length of time and the problem was not happening until recently I doubt it is the issue though.

Just for reference here is the bezel on the stock Clipper ign switches should you run across one somewhere. The Clippers and 22nd series 48s used the same bezel. Ign switch was almost the same. Both were 2 position with the difference being Clippers had armored cables running to a bottom terminal on the firewall mounted coils and 48s eliminated the armor and ran the wire straight to a regular coil with both terminals on one end. The 48 coil was mounted at the engine. The other photo shows the 3 position switch used on 23rd series 49s thru 53 models with the tapered stamped bezel. Packard didn't provide a key start until the 54 models. Those switches used the same tapered stamped bezel but were one year only and have been called "delicate". I guess that is the nice way of saying they were not as heavy duty and apparently had a shorter lifespan than previous switches. If you still have or could get an original Clipper bezel there is a Pollak aftermarket key start switch that has the same threads as the original switch and will work with the bezel.

As additional information, your accelerator pedal switch is still on the carb with wires present. Should you ever want to revert to original it might not be a hard thing to do. Of course it is impossible to say what might have been done with the wiring under the dash or on the solenoid in order to make the key start from the new ignition swith work so that portion could be an issue. No denying the key start is nice because there is little chance of flooding the engine with extra pedal pushes if an engine didn't start on the first push. Many with accelerator start added a hidden pushbutton in parallel with the accelerator switch for those situations.

Attach file:



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Posted on: 2021/8/8 9:53
Howard
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Re: 356ci Engine Stalls
#10
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

Pappy47
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I agree Howard! Yes, there is a filter right off the electric fuel pump towards the rear of the car. I'll have another look at it. I think I may also hook up a camera & see if I can capture any overflow from the carb when I first start it up. I've been given a good carb rebuilt place locally.

I've got to take car back into my mechanic for install on idler arm & replace rear pinion seal so will get his eyes on fuel system, ignition switch etc. BAsed on what I feel when I turn it I think that switch is wearing out anyway. I sorta manually "find" the sweet spot after I crank it so it's not staying too far right.

My goal is to focus on the mechanics like these and then focus on more cosmetics later.
Jeff

Posted on: 2021/8/8 21:04
Pappy47
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