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Zddp question
#1
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Icarus
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Hello there! I've been doing a lot of reading here and elsewhere about modern oils, and the lack of ZDDP present in modern oils causing premature wear in these old flatties. My questions are this:

1) did oil in 1948 even *have* additives present? I was under the impression it was straight mineral oil.

And

2) would it be advisable to introduce a zddp/phosphorus additive to the oil, and if so what sort of concentration would be advisable? The stuff I bought bangs on about bringing 6qts of oil up to 3200ppm, but my gut says that's WAY too high for regular usage.

Any info would be much appreciated!

Posted on: 9/29 9:20
-1948 Packard Super Deluxe Eight LWB
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Re: Zddp question
#2
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Joe Santana
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I can only tell you that I use Valvoline V1 high zinc racing oil 20-50 wt (not the synthetic version). I was told by a modern classics shop to only use high zinc oil.,For years I ran straight 30 wt, ordinary motor oil. For a long time I ran 15-40 wt. i think the most important piece of info is change the oil regularly, which I do every 2000 miles, about 3 times a year.

Posted on: 9/29 9:41
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Re: Zddp question
#3
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JWL
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Joe, unless you are trying to disguise some major engine problem the 20W-50 oil to too heavy. Take a look at Tim Cole's comments on the subject in another discussion thread.

Posted on: 9/29 10:56
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Re: Zddp question
#4
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Fish'n Jim
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I suggest you do a search of the available literature and stick to the reliable sources like SAE, etc. to answer your questions rather than reiterate a bunch of info that's been posted many times.
ZDDP was around in the late '30s.
I don't put much credence into some of the folklore of the pre-war period as it pertains to mechanical systems. My favorite example is the lead for valves, which was solved by changing metallurgy, not lead. Lots of marketing goo gets into the folklore and is repeated and becomes ingrained as myth.
I have several reports on ZDDP and for the most part, a portion of it volatilizes and goes out the breather, and once the surface is coated, not much else is going to happen. So there's no rationale other than to increase sales, of having very high levels and then you change it anyway? A lot of the other today's additives were not available pre-warsuch as detergents, viscosity modifiers, etc.

Posted on: 9/29 10:58
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Re: Zddp question
#5
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su8overdrive
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Dear Icarus! Thou art soaring too close to the incessant glare of the bolshoi. Heed JW, Tim Cole, Fish'n'Jim. Let the facts in attendance always be seated before hearsay.

We'd thought the ZDDP business long since vanquished by stake through heart.

The below is from a post made several years ago after discussion with major oil company techs, themselves owning various flat cam engines, one relating that he'd also owned a '41 Packard.

But first, everything from Packard's publications through MoToR's Auto Repair Manuals of the '30s, '40s, '50s lists 20W winter, 30 summer for Packards, and for nearly all other cars.

20W/50 is better suited for a worn out engine flogged in Arizona. Its thickness prevents it reaching all the critical metal-to-metal wear spots on cold start up.

Herewith, sir:

ZDDP/zinc is a another red herring. Today's zinc levels were "lowered" back to where they were in the '70s and before, after too much zinc hindered catalytic convertors. And we didn't hear all this zinc hysteria back then. You can trace it to a couple curmudgeons in the CCCA with flathead Cad 346-ci V-8s which use, unlike Packard's hardened steel, a chintzy bronze timing gear. They had trouble after rebuilds, so of course, it's the motor oil. Some Joe Sixpaks w/ the usual backyard hot-rodded SBC 350s had problems after their rebuilds, and also blamed the motor oil. The internet can be akin to shouting fire in a crowded theater or Fox "News."

Let's try some vetted journalism, engineering savvy.
"Just the facts, ma'am."

A Kendall/Conoco-Phillips engineer, himself with a highly-tweaked '67 Camaro with -- like many of our Packard engines (the big '30s seniors had the quality of a roller cam, but then even Packard/R-R Merlins have flat cams)-- a flat cam engine with m u c h higher valve spring pressures, explained that a friend of his was the one who produced the Indiana Region of the CCCA's 15W/40 "Classic Car Motor Oil," (advertised in Hemmings, etc.) and that even Kendall started marketing some oil with higher zinc because, he laughed,

"If you want to stay in business, you either give people what they want or think they need."

This petroleum engineer and gearhead himself uses the same off-the-shelf Kendall GT1 10W-30 i use in my '47 Super Clipper's inline eight lawnmower engine. I use Kendall because i came of age on the East Coast, liked the smell and old color (since abandoned), akin to Packard engine green, being a sucker for marketing, but an exhaustive Consumer Reports feature compared various major brand motor oils of the same weight used 60,000 miles in a fleet of NYC cabs and found little or no discernible difference among any of them.

ZDDP additives only settle at the bottom of your sump. And too much zinc unleashes other woes:https://aaoil.co.uk/123579-2/

Much ado about naught. The cheapest off-brand motor oil available today streets ahead of the best from the '60s, let alone the '40s. By extension, a Chevron or ExxonMobil petroleum engineer explained to a lifelong auto/aero machinist/mechanic pilot supercharged '37 Cord Phaeton, Auburn 12/Marmon 16-owning friend that the black molybdenum/graphite chassis grease, whether those brands or Sta-Lube, a factor of eight times better than the orange fiber grease around when our cars new into the '70s. And that exchange was in the late 1970s/1980.

Finally, and pardon the verbiage but not being retired as many here gathered, when i do post include what i can, thrice annual oil changes, certainly at 2,000 miles, are excessive and pointless, given the superiority of modern detergent motor oils, providing the owner not make the common mistake of firing up his car in the garage to show it off for a few minutes to visitors, then letting it sit for weeks or months.

Never start an engine lest you intend to drive it at least 18 or so miles highway to equalize temperature of block, manifold, head, stave off the formation of sludge, varnish, carbonic acid. A local fire dept. used to fast idle their trucks for 15-20 minutes then shut them off, only to discover they were only wearing their rings.

An old mechanic's test was to place your hand on the bottom of your oil pan. If too hot to keep there more than a split second, you got your oil hot enough.

I like a stone simple device provided by www.MasterLube.net, which captures your engine's peak oil pressure in an aluminum cylinder, which you can release via hidden toggle to pressurize your engine before starting, when according to McDonnell Douglas, Continental, and the SAE, 80-90% of all engine wear occurs.
Tell Kerry McCracken a '47 Super Clipper in Walnut Creek,CA and a quartet of '50s Ferraris near me referred you.

Posted on: 9/29 13:46
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Re: Zddp question
#6
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Tim Cole
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For your first question 3200 ppm are what is in racing oils and extreme use marine oils. If you are paying extra for it, you probably should use a different product.

As for modern SN/GF-5 oils versus old stuff I only can site that the oil sold specifically for my lawnmower is an SJ rated oil at 1100 ppm versus SN/GF-5 which something like 300. My lawnmower does not have a cylinder liner so I am not going dismiss what Briggs and Stratton is selling as a hoax.

One thing about zinc is it can act as a sacrificial barrier to corrosion, and I suspect modern clean burning engines don't need as much as dirty old carburetors.

I don't live near an engineering library anymore, but if I get curious maybe I will go down to the Flint library and order a petroleum engineering handbook to look at what they say. But they have to fix these broken down roads first. Until then I will stay here in small town.

Oh, and one more thing, it's all over the news they started tearing down the Packard plant today. It's labelled as an "embarrassment", but to whom?

Posted on: 9/29 18:37
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Re: Zddp question
#7
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DavidPackard
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I recently read a paper on zddp, and in spite of hours looking for it again I’ve struck-out. The paper outlined the post war history of zddp, and went something like this, and remember the goal is to produce more power than the competitor:

1. Dependent relationship between power output, higher compression ratios, and higher-octane fuel
2. Higher octane fuel was achieved with an increased level of tetraethyl lead
3. Higher levels of tetraethyl lead could foul spark plugs
4. Boron based compounds were introduced/increased as a lead scavenger
5. Boron based compounds would also deplete zddp in the lubricating oil
6. To maintain acceptable engine wear protection during a reasonable oil change interval, the initial level of zddp was increased to anticipate accelerated deletion during use

As the public demand for more and more engine power occurred, steps 2 – 6 were repeated until the power output exceeded 1 hp/cuin, octane rating of the fuel was 100+, and initial zddp levels of 1200-1600 ppm were formulated . . . and then the cycle was broken by ‘out-lawing’ lead in gasoline, so out goes the zddp depleting boron compound. When the initial level of zddp was reduced in response to the new set of boundary conditions the gear-head’s hair caught fire!

If all of this has a factual basis then the ‘extra’ amount of zddp was to specifically have a sufficient amount during the entire service life of the oil . . . even with lots of zddp depleting ‘boron’ in ‘high-test’ gasoline. What I haven’t found is whether the oil change interval was decreased to accommodate higher load requirements imposed on the cam/lifters when those components were optimized for power output. That would be evidence that some engines did/do require elevated zddp levels, and the solution was merely to change the oil more frequently.

I would think without ‘leaded’ fuel the historic (pre muscle car) levels of zddp would be quite adequate. I’ve also read that below 3000 rpm this is an academic subject, even for flat tappet cams, so an over maintained Packard I8 engine, driven by a mature driver, may have herd immunity on this subject.

Posted on: 9/29 22:41
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Re: Zddp question
#8
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su8overdrive
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It's easier to instill concern than quell it.

The Kendall engineer with the extreme high output 350 in his '67 Camaro with vastly higher valve spring pressure than our lazy flatheads, uses the same off the shelf GT1 10W/30 i use, which has the same ZDDP level as Quaker State/Pennzoil (both owned by Shell), and all other major brands, which is to say the same level as in the 1970s, when we never heard any of this fear mongering.

ZDDP above 1,200 ppm can increase corrosion, not a problem with most name brand quality motor oils, which are all around 800 ppm:

Attach file:


pdf CCF_000050-1-1.pdf Size: 681.19 KB; Hits: 37

Posted on: 9/29 23:00
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Re: Zddp question
#9
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Cli55er
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I’ll admit alot of this was too wordy, fancy, and long winded for me…. By this I mean I didn’t read it….So I’ll simply say I’ve never ran a zddp additive and my cars are fine. I run mobile 1 which does have some zinc…. But I digress…. Never an issue. With a grain of salt… probably… but less words.

Posted on: 9/30 0:30
1937 Packard 138-CD Deluxe Touring Limousine
Maroon/Black 1090-1021
[url=http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/registry/View.php?ID=232]1955 Packard
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Re: Zddp question
#10
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Wat_Tyler
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Translation: tl;dr


Too long; didn't read.


Wat read it.


Summation/Wat's Gross Oversimplification: tempest in a teapot. He has a new .22LR to sight in. The crankcases are all full of Mobil 1 full synthetic.

Posted on: 9/30 10:00
If you're not having fun, maybe it's your own damned fault.
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