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Somewhere in the recent TreadleVac-a-mania threads there was a comment about brake fade with drum brakes. I posted what I thought was an very important point relative to collector cars and especially newer folks entering the hobby with regard to their preparedness, from both a skill and awareness of maintenance viewpoint, to operate these cars safely. Forgive me if I'm being repetitive but I thought it important enough to paste into a new thread. You could give similar cautions about lack of awareness of maintenance needs, like periodic brake fluid flush and refill, headlight aiming, etc.

I'm essentially a purist and wouldn't consider changing from drum brakes but the fact is that people today are less-skillful drivers than driver's needed to be in the past. For example brake fade is unknown to today's drivers but driver's of my age grew up with it and were taught how to minimize it and manage it. My 56 Carib has the same brake system as you Patrician, and on driving tours in very hilly country like the Finger Lake region of New York I've experienced brake fade any number of times. But I learned to use lower gears on steep downgrades and otherwise alter my driving habits and thus it's not a problem. But for a guy who just stepped out of his Lexus into his first vintage drum-brake car, it could well be a problem because he has no idea that a different set of driving skills may be required, depending on the vintage of the car. Many of today's newby collectible car owners want the glamor of an old car, but aren't willing (or don't think they have to) to learn the skills that accompany such cars. We can play an important role in that regard via forums such as these.

I agree that drivers raised on disc/disc/ABS cars are untrained and unskilled in drum brake technique.

For the sake of discussion in this thread, how about some other skills like:

Defensive driving.

Passing on a two-lane road.

Steering on wet roads.

Going slow in the fast lane on a freeway.

Talking and/or texting on a cell phone.

Good observations Owen. I have owned cars from the 50's,60's,70's,80's & 90's. Each has a different feel, and its own quirks. My '77 Squire wagon has very touchy disc brakes that will put you through the windshield if you are too heavy on the pedal. My '88 squire has good disc brakes that needs moderate pedal pressure. Forgetting which car your in can deliver disasterous results (my wifes Thanksgiving yam casserole, 2 pumpkin pies, & deviled eggs sliding from the back of the wagon and slamming against the back seat was evidence of this. Thanksgiving 2005 is immortalized as the year my wagon killed dessert.)

I have yet to drive my Packard, but hope it is merely typical of other '50s cars I have owned.

Sure Craig, I agree. You named a good one - passing on 2-line roads.

The other thing I often note is that people new to an old car seem reluctant to read the owner's manual. When they finally find out their cars need a grease job every 1000 miles, they can't understand why as today's cars rarely have a grease fitting to be found.

Good point and one that I have demonstrated to me almost daily in using my '55 Patrician for daily transportation. One day, several months ago, I was taking my neighbour somewhere when another motorist cut in front of me to make a right-hand turn. His remark at the time, "h'mm, she's obviously never had a two ton Packard up her a$$ before," started me ruminating about the way that I learned to drive fifty years ago and the way that people drive today. A good many of the "courteous" driving habits so lacking in modern motorists were learned, by us old folks, as a result of having had to be aware of the limitations of the equipment that we were using. For instance, having the brakes fail totally on a '39 Chevy that I was driving and bouncing a Ford pickup truck that was sitting at the traffic signal in front of me across a four lane intersection is an experience that has stood me in good stead for over fifty years. Tailgating was a practise that one almost never saw (except of course in southern California) until modern disc brakes came into general use. Terminology, too, says something about one's driving experiences. Parking brakes, when I started driving, were commonly referred to as "emergency" brakes - because they frequently had to be used as such. Even signalling well before one turned (whether with hand signals or with those newfangled turn signals) was more a matter of survival than a matter of courtesy as was knowing, maintaining and repairing one's vehicle when needed - because it was (A LOT) cheaper than having to buy another one. All of these things, learned many years ago, make driving my Packard today much safer (for me and others on the road) than it would be did I not know about them.

Things learned as necessities and through sometimes hard and expensive experience have a way of being, somehow, more permanently etched into one's memory than do things that seem, today, to be considered courtesies.

People used to get pissed at me when I maintained a proper driving interval in my Grand Marquis, slowed and signalled before turning, looked in all possible areas and directions and signalled before changing lanes, etc. In the Packard these practises don't seem to irritate other drivers as much and I suppose that most think it's because I am "babying" my car - and I am. Just not for the reasons that they think.

Most who drive their old cars tend to be more familiar with them than the average driver and for good reason. That's another positive aspect of our particular dementia. It probably tends to promote safer all-round driving practises.

STRICTLY in terms of brakeing PERFORMANCE i find no fault with the BTV or any other part of the brake system. When my 56 Exec had the BTV on it it stopped as good as any vehicle i have ever driven includeing modern vehicles such as 2001 top-o-the line Dodge Ram, 89 Caprice among many others.

However, my approval of the BTV wanes fast in terms of alleged maintenance schedule, cost and one design flaw that i will not detail in this particular thread.

So strictly in terms of braking performance i see no reason why the 55-56 Packards should be driven any differently than any other modern CAR OF THE SAME SIZE.

Therein lies the difference. I do not drive my Ranger (small pick-up) the same way i drive my 01 Ram simply due to the overall dimension difference.

So i do not drive a modern Cadillac or 56 Packard the same way i drive a small jap car or vintage MG or modern toyota.

One can not compare a LARGE car to a mid-size or small car in terms of driveability. It's just 2wo different worlds, regardless of modern or vintage or mix'em and match'em.

Or, to look at it a different way. Does anyone drive a 56 Packard the same way they drive a 56 Studebaker??? I don't think so.

STRICTLY in terms of drive and roadability:
What is it that some modern car, ANY modern car will do better than a V8 Packard???

Keith, you make an excellent point. Today's drivers usually have no concept of the basic physics involved, i.e., momentum and energy.

Momentum being mass times velocity, so the more mass the more momentum at the same speed, i.e., heavy cars take longer to stop all things being equal.

Energy being mass times energy squared, so double the speed, quadruple the energy. Going faster takes much more "reaction time" and a lot more energy dissipation than less speed. And brakes have to dissipate energy, not momentum.

If people did understand this, they would slow down or at least follow at a farther distance.

Craig

P.S. Most people want to "save the planet", but will not take a physics course...or a driver's ED course, for that matter.

PackardV8 wrote:Quote:
<p>
Although this off topic and given that we are prejudiced, I would say <b>NOTHING</b> that is important to me.</p>
<UL>
<LI>V-8 engine with sufficient power to keep up with anything (110+mph top speed)
<LI>Torsion-Level suspension equal to most anything available today, even with computer design.
<LI>Everybody loves it (if they do not, then ignore them).
<LI>Great styling, albeit in the eye of the beholder.
<LI>Great interior, ditto.
<LI>Lots of room for passengers -- try that in anything less than a modern stretch limo!
<LI>Possible to upgrade to modern tech -- already discussed ad nauseum.
<LI>Great "what is that?" and "thumbs up!" factor.
<LI>That's enough for now. This requires another thread!
</UL>

Craig

Great topic.

I drove a friends 55' Patrician....I've also driven a 1968 Buick Wildcat, a 61' Buick LeSabre and a 1950 Packard.....ALL drove very different...much more concentration involved than todays cars. Alot more ''involvement'' also....parking brakes, gear shifts, clutches in some....not only that, but cars of yesteryear were for the most part, larger, and had more blind spots, AND smaller mirrors! haha.