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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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Joe Santana
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Thanks, DC,
Yes, I'd be interested to know what things from the hardware store I'd need to do that type of test and set it up.
My harness is a replacement and is in pretty good shape all around.
The kickdown switch breaks continuity when pressing on the accelerator all the down plus. I can feel the "bump."
The lock out also breaks continuity.
Flackmaster sent me a relay and the kickdown still didn't work using it, so I returned it.
It quit working in October, but has worked since 2011.
Too bad you're not in DC, dc. With car stuff, two heads are better than one, esp when one of them is mine.
I'm willing to try testing the circuit again with it live.

Posted on: 1/29 11:58
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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d c
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Sure Joe. May I send you a pm? Busy now but I have looked at the schematic. I would have a fused 16 or 14 gauge jumper with alligator clips both ends-20or 30 a breaker or fuse and a test light to pull an amp regular clip on one end and probe on other. These can be made for pennies if not available.

Posted on: 1/30 10:50
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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Joe Santana
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sure
i'll watch for it

Posted on: 1/30 12:10
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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d c
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Has this all been covered on a previous thread? If so would someone kindly add the link here.
I see this OD requires the driver to let off the throttle for engagement every time correct? Looking at the schematic above- this simplified version does not show the contacts in the solenoid actuator attached to the plunger shaft ant relate their state in both modes . The ignition cut out four through a contact in the actuator only closed when fully extended. See this schematic and description

Posted on: 1/31 10:12
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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HH56
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Quote:

d c wrote:
Has this all been covered on a previous thread? If so would someone kindly add the link here.
I see this OD requires the driver to let off the throttle for engagement every time correct? Looking at the schematic above- this simplified version does not show the contacts in the solenoid actuator attached to the plunger shaft ant relate their state in both modes . The ignition cut out four through a contact in the actuator only closed when fully extended. See this schematic and description


Anyone whose car has the R9 OD (models from 40 thru mid 48) can get a good understanding of the operation and state of various contacts at the given conditions by reading thru the Econodrive training manual which is available for download in the training manuals category on this site. The later R11 units from mid 48 on (with a few units retrofitted to earlier years) are considerably different mechanically and much simplified electrically. Their operation is detailed in the Borg-Warner overdrive booklet which is also available for download here.

Posted on: 1/31 10:29
Howard
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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Joe Santana
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I edited what DC wrote the following to me in a PM regarding the OD. I will answer his questions in the next post.

OD

Took a peak at the wire diagram found on this site. Then reviewed the service training manual. Then went back a ways in your project blog to about pg 95.

Good luck with the endeavor of the Duchess being your daily driver. I commend you(and question you).

With the overdrive seems like you have had a number of different symptoms. Before setting up a couple of simple tests to check for the flow of current would you confirm a few things?

Is this vehicle still a six volt positive ground?

Did you say previously that the od problem was first a creep out of disengaged toward engage and click/grind? Then the od would not engage for a time? Then sometimes no disengagement slowing from highway?

Now I see it will engage but not kick down , correct?

Some of these suggest mechanical issues not electrical. Looking at the schematic I see the govenor breaking the primary control circuit. This should disengage automatically every time slowing below 22 mph.

Why the need to manually disengage upon deceleration? No stalling should occur.

If this were mine I would do some simple mechanical tests, then proceed to electrical testing. First step of diag/repair is to review normal operation and note all symptoms. So what are the malfunctions occurring at this time?

Just looking at the schematic and service manual I would like to note a few things.
The actuator(solenoid) needs to have a a good chassis/ transmission connection as you have experienced this with your VR above. This “ground” as we call it is positive here and the solenoid windings and contacts need this for completed circuit and current flow. Rusted bolts, paint etc will be issues here. Both windings will need to be energized to create strong force of engagement.

I see the ignition cut out circuit and am aware this needs to function for a split second on kick down. I am curious about your muffler explosion and that of another poster in this thread? Can you explain the conditions in which this occurred? I wonder if this has all been addressed on another thread before? We can do this on your blog if you like?

First tests would be mechanical ones then fairly quick tests of the contacts with a test light from the relay terminals and a couple energizing the solenoid coils with one wire removed with jumper. I assume the control relay is accessible on the firewall? The solenoid is on the side of the trans OD unit as well as the governor so these are challenging.

The wiring diagram posted with the description above is a simplified one . I will be attaching a more accurate. There is a contact inside the solenoid cover that also controls the ignition cut out as well as other contacts opening and closing with plunger position. These will need to be tested.

BTW - carbs overflowing from float issues are a very dangerous fire hazard. They also dilute engine oil with a lot of raw fuel passing the piston rings! This is an engine killer. Bearings and cylinder scuffing through wash down. I hope you changed the oil! I saw no one mention this on your blog and am not sure how much experience you have as an auto mechanic. I guess you are having fun through this learning process. Old cars!
Cheers! DC

Posted on: 1/31 11:15
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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Joe Santana
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Hi, DC,

Yes, I have a fuel pressure gauge. If you search the Forums for "electric fuel pump vs. original” you’ll see my set up.
“It’s always something with that car,” is a favorite quote of A Certain Person.
As far as daily driver goes:
1. There is nothing on the car that can’t be repaired because of part failure, old age, accident, or vandalism (rare).
2. People in 1940 drove cars for everything, not just trailered to a show or driven on a tour at elderly speeds and short distances.
3. I’m 78, so statistically, how long do I have to keep this car running so I can do something I love?
4. Most parts and repairs, I have found, cost less to replace and repair than for a similarly nice modern car.
5. If you want reliability, you have to stay on top of regular maintenance and fix things as they crop up (Hence the comment: It’s always something. . .)

Confirming:
1. Yes, it’s still 6v, positive ground.
2. Yes, the lock-out switch ‘plunger’ attached to the dash, has wanted to slide forward gradually and unnoticed until at about 3/4’s forward the tranny makes a loud noise. To correct this, I twisted the adjusting clevis so, when the plunger was pulled out of OD, the engagement lever on the OD was farther forward, as far as the threads on the cable for the clevis would allow. Now it seem it only moves forward toward engagement if I use reverse, but other than that instance, it stays out. I did cut a piece of pvc cable cover to hold it, but haven’t needed it since I made the adjustment.
3. The OD would never engage on its own. It would just slide to a point where it made noise. When I push in the plunger, it always engages if I’m going fast enough (22mph). The OD operates as it should in all gears, except for the kick-down function.
4. On one occasion, after coming off the freeway using OD, I came to a stop light in a residential area and pulled it out of OD. When the light turned green, I let out the clutch the gear engaged after a big clunk. It had done this before, but on this one occasion, the standard gears stayed in free wheeling when I let off the gas. At some point soon after that, after using the OD again, using the reverse again, the system corrected itself and I had engine-braking in standard gear again.
5. The kick-down function does not work, correct.
6. I do not manually disengage just because of deceleration but because the traffic speeds are too slow, too many traffic lights, slow speeds on residential hills when engine braking really saves the brakes. The stalling was before I replaced the floats. Yes, the governor functions as it should.
7. The only malfunction is the kick-down.
8. PackardDon Pierson had a similar experience being in OD, 2nd gear, slowing down to 5 mph and not putting in the clutch, hitting the gas and boom. I do have a throttle guard on the Duchess now, but it is not set correctly. I plan to do this when Ross returns. But to me, it’s not worth the risk of the muffler exploding again because it could blow an eardrum.

9. The solenoid is well grounded. No rusty bolts on the Duchess. The undercarriage is pretty clean. The rebuilt solenoids installed in maybe 2017. I will go under and wipe down the solenoid.
10. Control relay is on the firewall. There is a video testing the contacts. You can hear the solenoid also click when the contacts are manipulated to set the momentary delay between when the upper contact is released and the lower one releases itself.
11. Photos on thread show the connections for each segment of the circuit. For the wire from the kickdown to the OD extension, I dropped a wire clipped to the kickdown straight down under the car. Connected that wire to multimeter and from multimeter to extension junction. The I tested from extension junction to governor. Then I connected the junction wires and tested from kickdown to governor. For the relay to lockout, I clipped to the relay and went in through the vent window to the lockout switch.
12. I have no mechanical ability. Backwards often looks correct to me. My process is. It takes me 3 times doing something wrong before I learn to do it right.
13. I run Valvoline 30wt VR1 high zinc hi-pro racing oil. Ain’t the cheapest oil change. I have 1800 mi since Oct 1, so I’m due again.
14. Yes, it looks like fun because you can't hear the cursing.

Posted on: 1/31 11:17
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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d c
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Ok sir. Now I understand. No questions of daily driving a 1940 any more.
Many items will have to be addressed one at a time. You say the OD works all the time but you say it has never engaged on its own or grinds during engagement in the last post. As I read it- this unit will be unavailable under 22 mph and above this in high gear (and others) when it is not locked out it will never engage under load! Accelerator MUST be released momentarily to allow full coast/decal for a second for the unit to engage. Is this how you are operating it? Does it still click and grind when you do this? If so there is a mechanical issue. As it is stated in the service info- there is a balk ring which NEEDS deceleration to rotate backwards to engage the pawl. This will be with the lockout knob pushed in and not a factor. Problems with the lockout creep and clicking are another thing. Also this unit should release electrically on decal below 22 and as soon as no load via drive torque or engine braking. Are you saying it clicks/grinds when you are lifting off throttle to engage it? And it will not disengage itself slowing below 22?

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Posted on: 1/31 14:04
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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d c
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Posted on: 2/1 9:28
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Re: The Duchess Project: 1940 Super 8 Convertible Sedan
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Joe Santana
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1. LOCKOUT CREEP Before I adjusted the cable from the lock-out switch to the OD lever, the cable had a tendency to work its way on its own towards engagement, but never going all the way, as when I push the lock-out knob all the way forward. At about 3/4s of the way forward, it would make a grinding noise. That situation has been partially remedied by a. making the cable length short by screwing in the clevis attached to the OD lever and b. by inserting a section of PVC on the lockout rod to prevent is from moving forward. The PVC as shown in the photo a few posts back has a full length slit that allows me to insert or remove it easily. Without the PVC, the only time the rod wants to move forward is when I use reverse gear. I don't think this issue affects the kick-down functionality. 2. HOW OD USED I almost always starting from a standstill, drive the car in standard gears. All gears work. All have direct-drive/engine-braking. Once on a road clear of bumper-to-bumper traffic and moving at 30mph or faster, I engage the clutch and push the lock-out switch forward with my foot on the accelerator. The red indicator light comes on and I release the accelerator as the OD engages. Then I resume acceleration. If I stop somewhere on my trip, I almost always leave the lock-out knob in, so that after I start the car and start moving, I will be in OD after the governor registers 22 mph via the speedometer pinion attached to the OD. There is no noise after the OD is fully and intentionally engaged. And there is engine braking above 22 mph, but at a higher gear ratio, so it is not very effect engine-braking. 3. DECELERATION Yes, below 22 MPH, slowing down for a stoplight, for instance, the OD disengages but the standard gears are free-wheeling. 4. Since the cable was adjusted, there is no clicking and grinding. The OD disengages below 22mph and goes into free-wheeling. You help os much appreciated, dc, but since everything is working except the kick-down function, I'm inclined to wait until Ross returns. It may be something obvious to his eyes. I could not figure out precisely from the description what parts and set up/connections are needed for the test light tool. I know, duh, but for instance how does a little alligator clip connect to a 6v battery? How do I have alligator clips at both ends and a probe? There are some old test lights for sale sans battery. Are there modern ones that work for 6v? I'm sure Ross will have one, and if you were here you could show me, dense as I am when it comes to this. I printed out the training manual. I'll study those sections you ref'ed.

Posted on: 2/1 10:29
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