I'm going to try to get a picture of this 12th series Packard Eight problem up because I've never seen anything like it.

In the mean time here is a symptom list:

a) Intermittent gear like rattle that sometimes sounds like a loose water pump bearing and changes to tappet like rattle.

b) Noise most prominent on valve side of motor.

c) Moves around motor from front to middle to back.

d) Testing with stethoscope excluded water pump, timing chain, and fuel pump.

e) Sometimes it's there and sometimes it isn't.

f) Non-load and non-temperature sensitive.

Good luck and congradulations to anyone who has seen something similar. I have a file of wierdo noises, but this one takes the cake.

Hint, I have included the cause within this posting.

Wow! What brought this on?

Hey thanks for all the suggestions.

I think the strip caulk idea sounds like a winner. When I get the chance I'm going to look at the junkyard car again for any evidence of sealer under the molding.

Now the molding on the car is in perfect shape. So good it looks new. And I don't think they put any sealer under it, but if it is the original molding and never had sealer then I wouldn't put any on there because that would be removing the original build. The folks who did the insert before did only show cars and I'm sure they never tested the top for leaks.

So if the only thing that was replaced was the fabric then why the top was water tight remains a Packard secret which is why I'm interested in a factory build spec.

If the molding is new it may have come from Northfield Forming in OHIO. They do extrusions. Ask for Dick the Packard guy.

The big issue with this car is that it should not be exposed to the weather and so roof leaks is moot. However, there is always the possibility that I will get a call to fix it regardless and that will be a whole new situation.

I remember many years ago seeing Turnquist's mint original 1939 which he never took out because it had the same problems as this car. They're only original once.

Well, here is the scoop. I had a 14th series V-12 come in today with ignition problems. There is lots of room in front of the fan on the car - over 3 inches. So that one should allow for removal.

However, according to Turnquist's book to accommodate the shorter wheelbase on the 16th-17th series cars the motor was moved forward right up against the radiator with maybe only an inch clearance. Unless someone has a 38-39 on which they have actually managed to remove the water pump my conclusion is that the nose has to come off.

Hey thanks,

I was looking at the junkyard car again and I notice that there is a raised inner lip that must act as the primary anti-drip method.

On the car in question, they put a sealer around the outside of the molding to cover the worn out paint.

I suspect that this could be the problem as water may the be backing up over that inner lip rather than draining from under the molding.

But again, I don't think this vehicle should be out in any kind of wet weather.

Hi Dave:

That's interesting about the eights because I was looking at a Packard letter that said the radiator had to come off.
Although Packard manuals are not always accurate.

To tell you the truth, I've never tried this because, by the time the water pump is shot, the rest of the cooling system should be completely disassembled and cleaned anyway.

The big problem is working around that radiator. Someone else told me it can be done.

However, even a shield doesn't guarantee that the fins won't get marred.

The next big problem is that when the bolts bust off you're going to pull the nose anyway and to avoid breaking the bolts, well, off comes the radiator.

I had a 180 come in for a water pump and the bolts were rusted into the block. That was a pretty scary situation but they did free up.

I'm putting this up as a favor to someone who doesn't use computers but has a question about his car.

It is my understanding that removing the water pump from the V-12 requires removal of radiator. This is especially true if the radiator fins are in mint condition.

There are a few exceptions - 745 and 6th series sidewinder - but for the most part removing water pumps from senior Packards means radiator removal. At least that is what the manuals imply.

All comments are welcome.

This is a 17th series seven passenger which has had the insert replaced already. Visually it looks great, but the owner says it leaks. When I looked at the car and the paint I told the owner that the car can't be used in the rain otherwise the original Packard paint will start falling off in chunks. He was skeptical about my conclusion. I wouldn't put water on it because of the paint.

What I would like to know is whether Packard used any compression media under the tacking strip which if ignored would allow leakage. I was looking at a 15th series car that came out of a junkyard and it looks like the thing originally was just cheap pantasote with no sealer or flashing cement. Wow. So I guess the wood acted as the anti-drip media. That's not a great system.

I personally have never driven one of these cars in a torrential downpour and so I really don't know what to expect.

I have driven a Darrin in the rain and water poured in from everywhere. It was like being on the poopdeck of squarerigger under heavy seas. I got soaked.

Thanks for the help.

I guess what is happening here is that you park the car and then it won't start.(?)

You can test for leaks in the fuel pump by plugging the input and applying vacuum to the output (fuel line at caburetor). Next check pump pressure and flow (2 pints per minute). Make sure the heat control valve isn't stuck closed. Check your ignition for 20,000 volts with motor running. Rough idle? Check your idle and cranking vacuum (2-5 in hg) and if it is low block off the power brakes and wipers and retest. Still low, check the anti-flood and manifold for leaks. Still low, check the compression.

Is gas running onto the ground from the anti-flood?

Then most likely culprit is plugged air bleeders in the main jet. This requires some professional service from experienced personnel to avoid breaking the carburetor into little pieces.

Packard was apparently having problems because they were putting heat shields all over those cars and releasing service letters blaming the malady on vapor lock in the gas tank.

Thanks for the help.

I have a service bulletin on the proper way to lower convertible tops and so I assume they must have had something on replacing fabric inserts.

This question comes about because I was consulted about the roof on a an original Packard Limo. (not as good as Turnquist's 39 but pretty good). After examining the paint I concluded that under no circumstances should the vehicle come into contact with rain or water because the original Packard paint job was starting to check.

This car is a museum piece and the the proper way to avoid customer disatisfaction is to go by the book. Given the situation with the paint I couldn't do anything because I couldn't put water on it anyway.

I wanted some quality written material because that is the proper way to approach a problem like this.

Thanks,