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The days of plants like EGB were roundly over for large scale production. Buick kept going in a few plants like EGB for years, AMC, in their own cash-poor way did so out of necessity, but the war really changed how large scale production happened.

As discussed, a multistory plant, that is paid for and structurally sound, can be competitive vs walking away from it for a new one. Cadillac Clark St, Dodge Main and Chrysler on Jefferson were all about as old as EBG, with the same multi-story layout, but operated into the 80s.

The move to one story plants started with the availability of electric conveyors. The Graham-Paige plant I posted about above was built in the 20s. Plymouth on Lynch Rd was built in 29.

He told me about walking down this dark hallway, a flickering fluorescent light every so often, plaster falling, laying in little piles on the floor--

Yup, things the public doesn't see are the first to go. When Sherwood Egbert took over as President of Studebaker, he instituted a "clean up, paint up" program around the complex, which had been let go for a long time, as a try at improving worker morale. Palazuelo's assistant's father had been a steel buyer at Packard. She says he quit in 52, "because he could see the writing on the wall".

Packard was burying their heads in the sand by ballywhooing the East Grand Boulevard square footage over Willow Run.

Well, they wouldn't be the first guys arguing about who had a bigger one.

EGB really wasn't that bad from a workflow standpoint. Body trimming at the south end, then the bodies move north to where frame buildup is done. Drop the two together and done.

Compare that to the chaos at Studebaker. On this photo, look at where the stamping plants are, then look at where the body plants are, then look at where final assembly is.

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Another view of Studebaker, this time from the west circa 1926.

The stamping plants are on the right, just behind the smoke comming from a switching locomotive. The multi-story buildings behind the stamping plants are the assembly lines. The "new" body plant, is at the far left. By some accounts, Packard production was never moved to South Bend because the longer Packard bodies could not make the turns in the line in the body plant.

Makes EGB look like a model of efficiency.

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well, yeah, but Stude was never a company to emulate from a business practices standpoint. One thing good about Packard/EGB is that it was almost under one roof, or a tightly knit complex of roofs.

Gee, for awhile I thought I might be accused of being a misanthrope given my disdain for Michigan public officials.

People who are vagrant and never leave a few block radius are probably shooting junk or on crack. More likely junk because withdrawal starts by the end of the day without a shot. But more junk is coming out of Afghan than ever before thanks to the American taxpayer. Taxpayer subsidized Heroin - how screwed up is that?

So these junkies run around stealing anything they can lay their hands on to get a shot. However, the government likes illegal drugs so don't expect anything to improve.
I always felt they should set up a drug state - "drugland" - and send all the junkies there. They can have their junk habits and leave the rest of us alone.

But what does this have to do with the Packard plant? Well, I don't go into Detroit at all because it is such a dump. It is so out of hand that I am bewildered. However, take a look around and that is where this entire country is heading. I've lived in other states where there are abandoned mansions and I don't understand why such places end up as slums except that most of the mansions were converted into welfare apartments.

So maybe the Packard plant may end up a giant welfare hotel.

well, yeah, but Stude was never a company to emulate from a business practices standpoint.

Packard didn't emulate Stude, it bought them. Packard married those business practices. And the way the deal was structured, the Stude stockholders had a controlling interest. The board couldn't even agree to close down one of the test tracks, so those redundant costs kept piling up.

Besides the question of whether the larger Packard bodies could have made the turns in the Studebaker body plant, could EBG have produced 150,000 Studebakers/yr, on top of existing Packard production? Maybe so, but the Studebaker stockholders would not allow South Bend to be abandoned.

One thing good about Packard/EGB is that it was almost under one roof

A huge advantage over the scattered complex that Studie had. That one roof had it's drawbacks. It was too low. Compare the pic of the EGB exhaust hood from 38, with the paint booth Kaiser had at W-R. The EGB exhaust duct is right under the ceiling. I have seen pix of the Concord St side with several ducts coming out of windows and going up the side of the building. Modern paint booths and ovens would not have fit in EGB without major rennovations. That fact probably also played in the decision to outsource body building to Briggs.

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We can stick another fork in the Willow Run idea.

Reviewing some of the Kaiser material I read a while back, I found two different sources that stated that Kaiser's break even at W-R was 400/day, which is roughly double what Packard sold in 55.

As originally configured W-R had a capacity, on three shifts, of 1,600/day, so it wouldn't be strained by Packard and Studebaker production, combined, but S-P did not exist as a single company in the window of opportunity in July 53.

For Packard alone, W-R would have been a huge money sink.

At long last, I am reading the excellent story (he didn't write it, but he told it) of John DeLorean: On A Clear Day You Can See General Motors. DeLorean started at Chrysler but moved to Packard about 1952, where he worked with McFarland on the new Twin Ultramatic engineering. He must have seen something positive there to make that move. His four years at Packard were recalled as productive and happy. He left in 1956 after Detroit had been shut down as Packard's Research and Development chief. On September 1, 1956 he started his meteoric climb with a move to General Motors. Out of necessity, it became his version of jumping from a frying pan into a bureaucratic fire.

Today's announcement that Cadillac is building a $174 million stamping plant next to their second newest plant in Lansing might be a lesson Packard could have used sixty-one years ago, had time travel (DeLorean, again?) been possible. 145 jobs come with that new stamping plant, but that's with tons of automation. In Packard's day, it might have been thousands hired to get the same productivity.

Finally, my October 2014 issue of Hemming's Classic Car came yesterday. Of the five letters from readers, three were on the subject of Packard and two of them were somewhat consistent with our What If's theme. There are a lot of people who miss Packard and what they think might have happened. Apparently, they're not confined to this forum.

Here's a little truth about John DeLorean and Packard, as told by people who were there. DeLorean never worked at Chrysler, he let them pay for his education through the Chrysler Institute, but instead of going to work for the company, as was the plan for Institute graduates he went to Packard for a few extra bucks in his weekly pay envelope.
In the spring of 1956 Forest McFarland, whom DeLorean reported to, sensed that the end was near at Packard and he quietly began marketing his services. Buick hired him and he put in his two weeks notice at Packard. On his last day at Packard McFarland went around the advanced engineering group and shook everyone's hand and thanked them for their contributions, he then cleaned out his personal effects from his office and left.
The following Monday DeLorean came in, looked around and moved his stuff from his drafting board in the middle of the big room and set up shop in McFarland's old office. Packard management was in such disarray and so busy running around "putting out fires" (figuratively) that no one in a position of authority noticed that DeLorean was in McFarland's old office, if they had they would have told him to get back to his drawing board or leave. The advanced engineering group sort of sailed on without a captain, and humored DeLorean when he tried to play captain. The whole department went away by September of that year and DeLorean moved on to GM. He published the "fact" that he was in charge of experimental engineering at Packard and his myth became "fact".

moved to Packard about 1952, where he worked with McFarland on the new Twin Ultramatic engineering. He must have seen something positive there to make that move.

It's easier to be a big fish in a small pond.

Gordon Buehrig was at GM, then went to Duesenberg, then moved to Auburn, to redesign the Auburn line and design the Cord 810. The 810 was based on doodles he had played with while at GM.

Alex Tremulis did some updates for the Cord 812, then putzed around at Briggs for a while, including working on the original Packard Clipper, before moving to Tucker. After Tucker he was at Kaiser for a few years.

Dick Teague worked at Kaiser, then at GM for a while (the Wiki article says "dismissed") then Packard.

145 jobs come with that new stamping plant,

Once you have stampings, you need to put them together. I played around with the dimensions of Packard's building 31-39 complex vs the size and capacity that Kaiser had.

Roofing over between wings of 31-38 at the third floor level would give the overhead clearance needed for the ovens. Body buildup could be built where bldg 39 was.

That would still be on the small side. Kaiser had 2 body lines, giving a three shift capacity of 1,600/day. Packard would only have room for 1 line, cutting capacity to 800/day. Kaiser's primer oven was 360' long. The largest between wings space at EGB is 240x241, so either jackhammer out the second level floors in buildings 32,33 and 36 for clearance, or shorten the ovens. Shortening the ovens to fit in 240' would require cutting line speed by 1/3, so now capicity is about 500/day, so the body line would be running 24hrs/day to supply the assembly line for 1 shift, though actual production rate in 55 looks to be about half that, so it would have been adequate over the short term.

The killer for that plan is all that first floor space was already in use. Production would have been disrupted for months. How to keep the dealers supplied? How to retain the workforce with that long of a layoff?

I keep coming back to the merger that Hudson proposed to Packard in August 53. Gain an established mid-market brand, gain owner base, gain dealers, gain a fully equipped and staffed body plant, and if Clippers retrimmed as Hornets and Wasps (Hudards? Packsons?) are accepted in the market, doubled volume. All for a stock swap, rather than cash that would have been required for Willow Run or any expansion or rennovation of EGB to bring bodybuilding in house.

Thanks Mr. P-B for another version I am only half-way through the DeLorean memories (as told to Wright), but cannot recall a single instance where DeLorean admits to making a mistake. Your account makes sense. I have often wondered how dysfunctional EGB and Utica must have been to the good people left behind June 25, 1956. Rats and sinking ships come to mind but these good people could never be referred to as rats.

From what I have read, Ford was ready to hire any of the ex-Packard folks, but obviously, GM and Chrysler took some, too.

Later, DeLorean refers to GM's TurboGlide (and by association, Buick's Twin Pitch Dynaflow) as one of their biggest corporate errors. Wonder if there was a pulled punch for his mentor Forrest McFarland in that assertion?

I'm so happy that the late Bob Aller would find an enthusiastic home, first at Edsel, then Mercury. But Bob's true love was obviously Packard and he proved it until his death.

Where will the Packard hobby be when all the "I was there" guys have gone to their reward? I suspect it will then rest on the shoulders of some of our forum members in their 40-50s. Maybe in any one who enjoys automobile archeology with the cars the rest of us leave behind.