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Board index » All Posts (DavidPackard)




Re: Wiring Diagram for R-6 Overdrive
#11
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DavidPackard
I do appreciate the 30 mph in reverse comment, and if the chassis could get there the throttle switch would likely trip the circuit anyway. I equally appreciate the belts and suspenders comment, but ‘belts and suspenders’ also means the original design required two independent failures before the OD was in jeopardy. I’m not sure about the push button design to force the down shift. As you said if a R-6 kickdown switch isn’t found a R9-11 switch will do with an aux relay with the solenoid connected to the NC terminal. I put ‘defeat’ switches in both of my cars (R9-11) so I can inhibit OD operation anytime I want. The switch also makes a convenient way to force a downshift while I’m coasting-up to a traffic light. Sometimes I can get the timing just right and never have to stop, or lug away . . . I’m reluctant to ‘floor’ the throttle at low speed, so I command a ‘kickdown’ by interrupting power. As long as I’m coasting the ignition cut-out feature isn’t needed.

dp

Posted on: 5/15 17:52
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Re: Wiring Diagram for R-6 Overdrive
#12
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DavidPackard
Ross can you fill us in on the purpose of the reverse switch in the diagram Howard posted?

dp

Posted on: 5/15 17:05
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Re: KPack's 1954 Panama
#13
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DavidPackard
I put a set of radials (they look like ‘pie-cut bias ply) and inflated to something like 28psi. The ride was quite good, however many people would stop me and say that one of my tires was going down’. Since I started using 36 psi the ride is still OK, but not as good as the ride at 28psi, and the ‘you’re getting a flat’ comments have ceased. I’ve seen some folks interpret the maximum inflation pressure as the normal operating pressure . . .they're not the same.

dp

Posted on: 5/15 16:04
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Re: Garage Lift Recommendations
#14
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DavidPackard
I hate to admit how right Fish’n Jim is. I think those of us with low headroom garages should temper our shop equipment dreams and aspirations. I guess it’s ‘head out of the clouds’, and back on the cardboard for me. I did a quick calculation that if I jacked my car up once a week and made a $10 contribution to a garage lift fund, it would take more than 7.5 years for the fund to have enough money to actually buy a lift. Does anyone know the driving distance from Arizona to MJG’s garage? That’s my dream of a man cave . . . I never figured out how to keep the junk (valuable New England family heirlooms) from getting in the way.
dp

Posted on: 5/15 16:00
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Re: Wiring Diagram for R-6 Overdrive
#15
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DavidPackard
I think the vintageautogarge.com reference was covering the R6-7 differences to the R9-11, and mentions the marks that used both/either an R6 of R7. When they mentioned the years of application I think that was a general statement, else there would be one statement for each mark.

In the aircraft fuel control business we have to ‘bookkeep’ the cycle time between the software making a decision, the output driver awaking, and finally the ‘dumb mechanical system’ component moving (you should hear what the component engineers say about the software people). The time you mentioned is 25ms, so I would say that the time for the DMS to respond to the loss/application of power. There’s also some dimension that the DMS has to move before the contacts that short the ignition points move to the open state. I’m surprised the latency would be stated. How would the dealer mechanic deal with that information?

BDeB added that the ’39 had a mechanical ‘block-out’ cable, so we can conclude that the OD Ernie will work on will have that feature, but unless the car was originally equipped with an OD said cable will need to be installed in the car. Ernie adds that an R-6 has been installed in the ’41 110 he’s working on. I still haven’t found any information that senior cars had the newer OD design, while junior cars retained the previous design, so it may be a Frankenstein car.

Unless there is an external marking to confirm the design: If the OD is out of the car I think step one is to confirm whether the OD is in fact an R-6 design (it really matters when the electrical controls are added later). With the cable lever in the ‘enable OD operation’ position (cable in), what if the gear ratio was determined in high gear (1:1, not a big challenge), and then the solenoid was powered with a simple jumper. If it’s an R6-7, then the ratio should still be 1:1. If it’s other than 1:1 it’s not an R6-7. If the OD is already in the car, and the cable is installed, one short test drive in ‘forward’ only would confirm the OD is actually OD’ing. Without an electrical system if the OD changes the gear ratio it must be an R6-7 design and the fun with wires can begin. Once the OD has proven that it works, I would stop the car and pull the cable out. And, by the way, have the cable pulled out when you’re first backing out of the shop . . . . There’s no reverse lock-out yet!

Once pinned down as to the model of OD is in the car. Ernie either spearheads getting all of the correct OEM parts (switches and brackets) together, complete with some cotton covered wire to lash the whole thing together, or hide a system made of modern components. The important part is the switches are likely different for the R6-7 design (need to confirm this . . . parts book?). To me it looks like the logic of the solenoid side of the kickdown and the reverse lockout, is opposite of those for the R9-11 design. The ignition cut-out appears to be the same.

So a good first question might be, “Is there an external marking that identifies the OD design . . . like is R-6 cast into the housing?”

If there is a cable already in the car, and it’s hooked-up, call the owner and tell him that he should not push the cable in. Have him write it on a piece of paper and tape it to the dash.

dp

Posted on: 5/15 15:10
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Re: Wiring Diagram for R-6 Overdrive
#16
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DavidPackard
Ernie & Howard

I was looking at the wiring diagrams, and found the same artwork in a prewar Motor’s Auto Repair Manual. I also remembered that Tinman was talking about OD electrical parts for his car, so I pulled up the website that he mentioned. If my interpretation of this information is correct the R-6 solenoid is powered to electrically ‘get-out’ or ‘stay-out’ of OD . . . . Is this correct ????????

If true that would make the logic of the reverse and kickdown switches unique to the early overdrive units. It will certainly alter the parts needed if a non-OEM system is put together. Also if this information is correct the R-6 OD should work without any wiring connected. It would not have reverse protection (that’s not good), or a kickdown function (you really don’t need a passing gear), but it will shift into OD. I haven’t found information about a lock-out cable, but how else would you sell a car in San Francisco without a means to lock-out the ‘free-wheeling’ function. My Motor’s manual doesn’t talk about any differences between six or eight cylinder OD units.
Here’s the info I found:

Borg Warner R10-R11 Overdrive Solenoid Reducer 12Volts to 6 volts (vintageautogarage.com)

I know the product is for a 6 to 12 V conversion but part way down the product description is the following;

Excerpt:
Note Regarding R6 and R7 Overdrives.
The R7 installed in Chryser/Desoto/Nash/Hudson/Packard cars is a semi-electric type OD where the upshift is entirely done by centrifugal governor inside the OD. The only thing the Solenoid is used for is kickdown while still above the OD threshold of 25-35 MPH, means there is only power to the solenoid during kickdown function.
Without the solenoid connected, the car should operate as the 1st generation OD’s from 1934 did – they had no kickdown function.
R6 was mostly used in 1939, and R7 mostly in 1940 & 1941. Between marques, there are different setups.

The website text continues with instructions for wiring the older designs, but let’s go back to the Motor’s manual. Here’s an excerpt that caught my eye, we’re in the paragraph about working on the 40-42 OD, “The new solenoid operates exactly opposite to that of the 1939, in that it pushes the pawl in when energized instead of out.”

This statement may only be information about the interchangeability of solenoids, not the wiring of same.

dp

Posted on: 5/15 12:34
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Re: Garage Lift Recommendations
#17
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DavidPackard
Kevin, 4 posters are still on my list for sure. My ceiling height is something like 9’ 4” (I just measured it). I’ve seen a few videos on how easy they’re to move . . . with only one person it looks like quite a challenge, but at least it doesn’t take a crane. I think having casters on all four corners distracts from directional predictability. A positive for those lifts, as you noted, there is nothing stopping you from parking a car underneath a raised lift. I don’t have enough headroom for another car on top, but surely with a simple floor ‘stuff’ could be stored above a car. I’ve looked into the wall mounted door openers, and I’ve considered getting rid of the electric door opener where the lift would normally be located. I won’t be taking the Packard out in the once a year rain storm, so getting out of the car to open the door is not an issue. Since the car fits between the door tracks I don’t think they have to move unless you want the garage door open while the lift is UP, but all of that stuff is simple, and has been done many times before. I’ve looked into a few of the brands you mentioned and the post height, at least the standard height lifts, will fit under my door tracks, so I could move bay to bay with the tracks I have. Everything looks like a 4 post lift will fit, and in the worst case one or two cabinets need to move to give the posts enough room to center the lift in the door opening, which is not absolutely necessary.

As for bolting down the posts, I was looking for some data on what was the maximum floor pitch that would be acceptable with full load and full height, but I couldn’t find anything of that subject. I was wondering if shimming the low posts would be OK. One downside of drive-on lifts is the extra height of the car when it’s on the lift, and where does one stand when working in the engine bay. A simple work platform would solve that access issue. I know when I was removing the starter on the ’54 I took the LF wheel off to allow the car to kneel and allow me to reach the starter without climbing on the fender . . . but I did anyway.

dp

Posted on: 5/13 18:53
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Re: Manual Transmission Clicking Noise
#18
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DavidPackard
TimE, was the root cause of the clicking noise ever identified ?

dp

Posted on: 5/13 17:28
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Re: Garage Lift Recommendations
#19
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DavidPackard
HH56 thanks for the input and link.

I’ve looked at the 2 post ‘portable’ units. There is a minimum concrete thickness, and I suspect a minimum concrete strength, for the anchors to react the moment at the base. One of the manufactures has changed their base geometry to increase the moment arm of the two critical bolts. That would reduce the pull-out force on those anchors. Before I jump to that design I will have to bore a hole to measure the depth of the garage floor . . . and assume 3500 psi is likely the minimum strength that may be marketed. Another option is to manufacture a few steel plates (thickness TBD) with an even larger moment arm from those two bolts.

I’ve also looked at cutting the floor to put in some footings for an ‘in floor’ scissor lift. That would result in a free space under the entire drive line and easy drive in and out for the Mrs.. That extra construction cost could be avoided if the side entry/retraction scheme is doable for the run of the mill scissor lift.

If the weight of each post in the 2 post portable design gets out of hand I could always use a ‘cherry picker’ to lift and move ‘to and from’.

dp

Posted on: 5/13 16:52
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Re: Garage Lift Recommendations
#20
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DavidPackard
Most of the scissor lifts have two wheels , let's call that the back, and then a bit of structure on the front. The hydraulic pump unit has two wheels and a feature to engage that aforementioned structure. Once the hydraulic pump cart is broken over center the front end of the scissor lift is lifted and the weight is on the HP cart wheels. Lots of mechanical advantage, so there isn't a lot of effort to lift the lift. Now rolling over cracks in the floor is another kettle of fish.

If this business of rolling the lift from the side of the car is technically feasible, then once the car is up on stands the lift should be able to roll out of the way, or just sit there not carrying load. From what I’ve seen on the G Smith website they want the car on stands if the anticipated ‘lift’ time is 8 hours or more.

Posted on: 5/13 15:47
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