Chris - I hardly have any experience, but looking at the pictures I see dollar signs adding up in my head. 1K for tires, several thousand for paint, who knows what needs to be done on the engine and transmission, etc, etc. There are nice driver-quality Mayfair's that go for 10-15K occasionally, and this car could easily cost that much or more to get to that level. I counter-offered $3100 but haven't heard back. Not sure what others are offering now, but any more than that is too rich for my blood. I'd rather save up and get one that's in much better shape that I don't have to rebuild.

-Kevin

Well I offered him $1,500 because of how much work it's going to take to get it back in shape. He said he's had multiple offers of $3,000. I have no idea what is fair for something like this. I like that the interior is in good shape, but the paint is destroyed. With the paint flaking off like that it makes me think it's in a very damp environment, which means likely rust elsewhere. The engine is the wrong color and it looks like there is some interesting work that was done to it (upper radiator hose and blue parts??).

Don - I guess I missed that previous posting. Yes, the 5 scoops are kind of odd.

'52 Packard Mayfair.

Seller has it listed as a '53 but the numbers are for a '52. Excellent interior, rough exterior. Hasn't run in 20 years. I'm waffling between making an offer on it. I've always liked Mayfair's. Probably not the right time for me though.

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/d/bellingham-1953-packard-mayfair/7067524356.html

Last weekend we got a bit more done, but not all we were hoping for. We are still waiting on the remaining pistons rings (back-order) as well as the '39 water pump rebuild.

The guy we are working with wants to try something a bit different to install the pistons. The rods are too big to drop through the cylinders, so they need to be inserted from under the block. Since we are waiting on piston rings he wanted to try and push forward with whatever else we could. His plan is to suspend the block a little above the crankcase, with enough room to drop the pistons down from the top of the block, and get the pin through the piston and rod. No idea how well this will work out, but that's the way we're headed right now. I've never assembled an engine, so I'm not sure how it is typically done.

Video of the work:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QpQ2TRUt5tU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The underside of the engine
<img src="https://pbxepq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mnkv_WKXgGiY1kbvhZ1MpeUUXs-Njp6Ew7dHDn4m4cl00VNrZlwhfrOtjjOS_MCAwkAsktqsLxbm_Qq5YbTUXV8DwofY8toBLGpgwy5qmL5c6xof0_b9koJZ01ezDuOVNXJY7ZEtJdVSH-JWbvsPZ_qq_FOHs1IEBvtmOa3uJUZ6jI8Dpd0msaFBYhqiKH9IxdQhB4DnSNQGtf-Gl9ic57w?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none" width="495" height="660" />

Fuel pump and oil cooler installed. We'll get the rest of the oil lines and oil filter installed after the block goes on.
<img src="https://pbwppq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4m17Zjz_MsyyX-dKKLJNDiKTc_TaBl0GwyMYYkpESwrYYAQ4O575b1Yz7UCyhTFWokenlfNoH2NiqXyXUYBfYKH8qI9XkYlHI4XCiUmQ-RiBBBfGdCb5j2d9PRH0t6KvfThWPa6RO2G1ifzxjX7xKSwq8P5WNo5RybHPWBoUfRRQvB22bzUNUPoQ6Bl26PmlPiA0_hQwtYTLbOS19WGY4SxQ?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none" width="495" height="660" />

Also got the timing chain put on. We used the shop manual to show us how to line it up right. After this we drove both the gears on and torqued the camshaft retaining nut down to 160 ft/lbs, then placed and bent a cotter pin.
<img src="https://pbxfpq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mLQAcijGPKXZWCXcZnZbrISDFK49mRjCt6haCYuj_rlKFbjlGHGgTG4ySvILjqBjDld58AevhlsxdTPIP9xI3yBF9ci7gP_8pMTNyNPJsXwjvTs5GEuZLvuOqiDpNYC5AibIADCKpDoNK8C3yjB36jXM1Qb6RRg1IcN48txzWdy6fVZc3XUB4BAcyynRUZ-IJpkbzHtjRvMy1DlY2FunerA?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none" width="660" height="495" />

Now we just get to wait. Not much is going to happen for the next month while we wait for parts.


-Kevin

Here's an update for any who are following our saga. My dad and I have been calling around to any source we can find in search of a '39 water pump, and I'm happy to say we have located one. My dad found David from Seattle Packard's and he had just taken delivery of a '39 Super 8 parts car. We reserved the water pump, as well as all the pulleys and fan, in case they are different. The pump will be sent out for rebuild.

During our search I had several great conversations with a few Packard guys, who were very helpful. John Ulrich and I talked for a while about our problem and he shared a lot of knowledge with me. He couldn't help with our specific problem, so he directed me to Parker at Parker's Packards. Parker again was happy to talk and I learned a lot from him.

In addition, I've had several email exchanges with others that have been very helpful. Thank you all for your help and support.

This weekend we'll be wrapping up installing everything in the lower half of the engine and get the oil pan on. After that will be installing the pistons on the rods and getting the block mounted. Then we'll have to wait for the water pump rebuild to get the engine back in the car.

-Kevin

Jim - PM should be there with the email address. Thanks!


Alright, so here's the issue we're seeing between the '38 pump and the '39 block. The '38 pump is "offset" to the side.
<img src="https://p7wppq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mFjXefF4xeuWYbQhowt6xEqTL-_ERGvg9Zh53eTBMBspIMKT46_O5pUwjNssCM5Zd2qGT7qJpaYZ8iYgHAfQd0x5tay_47YxsADSYM9bcXeu8eSnyRo2TiaoPk9Y5m7Zp5os2iX0_bhn6ulTPIsl0OAGXjcoREybZ5tz21Sneifa3DNcOk6q7jDUkmgWxeizKucFZoq8j9cusXPHqdxxZ-Q?width=315&height=660&cropmode=none" width="315" height="660" />

<img src="https://prxhpq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mcaw_FgYr4sfCLYlBIRLBmPklKnMkxjUmWcx75sZVOWM3JjlpIMPQ2bCW7aCyMJW4fhvOAE9fsQq_Lp_7A-YKO3AlUvEiBpIAqltP82RNBgGEHoVIt8T6ZR2IOB5GaJ8c0FXhaVf20HYRm9uLatpEfBC1Us30SGB5Gi8Yy2Rx5-MZP-PxBMPF2bYYZCA8979T-fJqKN0KreRqKtILJyVaXw?width=315&height=660&cropmode=none" width="315" height="660" />

Whereas the '39 block appears to be centered:
<img src="https://p7wqpq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mWoaSKR2spVquSRdgD5Tf6veW_xy4MCUEW3QlNzCa8goKu0ULMQoaY7iTgqaq77NdZuSY47SO0RYv3f41HSgfKe-iBcW8tntdExSA7xyaLw6IjX_KKl7XaROPNGkB9SlLhaLaJHAQ52NCUDdcannkEK1XpABFzmmgrsOe3OKdxjwrj9TugkDptBKKYTvKMu15vwMXeISgOEpFHRAIZU2iWA?width=660&height=315&cropmode=none" width="660" height="315" />

The only pictures I've been able to find anywhere of a '39 pump are located in this thread: https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21019&forum=8&post_id=206055#forumpost206055

I'm assuming that is the correct set-up for a '39 Super 8, which looks vastly different than the '38 (or what we think is a '38) that we have.

-Kevin

Dave, thanks for the picture. The pump we have has an angled face, and the impeller blades are angled to fit into it. So it appears that the impeller is potentially correct after all.

However, I completely forgot an important detail that makes this all a moot point. The cylinder block is actually a 1939 block, rather than a '38. The old block was ruined and we could not find a '38 anywhere. So it turns out the water pump was completely different for a '39, which means we're now on the hunt for a '39 pump.

-Kevin

Thanks all of you for the input. I wondered if the impeller was backwards based on the '37-38 shop manual, where it looks like the impeller fins are outboard of the rest of the pump:
<img src="https://p7xepq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mEPnUS3HUgstOxaBvjWaKJr_CiIeh0SbdeLiy6IQAXlWJQcxMWJ14guVagcCeO8aN8Cbd7sYzHTP3pchZGBt_X1Mcc9akVyGrVvqkTeA7y9xuIyc2IbrfrZt0W0mQEzm04a6L2DWgiUNfcy1d4W1RATmRUaURmdZBtJbCFo20pffclBJWW4ET2lOM7GUayN3HVrgh27nYF0QrmEyVXCmb4A?width=354&height=578&cropmode=none" width="354" height="578" />

Regardless, I agree with Owen_Dyneto and flackmaster regarding the inefficiency of the impeller. As it sits right now it leaves a huge gap in the water inlet, which means that likely very little water is actually getting moved.

Jim, you're correct that the engine has a history of overheating. That's what originally destroyed the block. It seems like this water pump/impeller may have contributed, as well as a poorly made water jacket and aftermarket thermostat.

-Kevin

I've got another question. We're looking at the water pump and something doesn't look right about this impeller. Looking at the 37-38 manual, it looks like it should be a totally different impeller design. The one that we have on the pump sits with a large gap between it and the water inlet to the pump (almost a 1/2" gap). That can't be right. It almost looks like it's installed backwards, but even still it doesn't seem to be right for this pump at all.


Here's what it looks like:
<img src="https://p7xipq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mSrqGXjkjjBel9SmooR-Bz07xlaY67bfqVAwhd4_ckMVSfBxO11hkXLKNzcb8vP5rSUWP9-_w7VSuBlTkZr1EVIae7yhOwykeOKxBgcxd_v2WRqP7q8OcXpZHQTUCcAVZ6bCoCZ4Yg5AiXzFihZ2Jnpz6iv-5ZvygQIUEwC5VDEeq_V08QA4cB7GnxhDb1i5popdc2KAJDJd-8VyyATNtmg?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none" width="495" height="660" />

<img src="https://p7xdpq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mNOmGXbRLUKdwFfb32_roPUYhhYFBC02mhJHGbiloCwnJfRmmyTMzkcGHRFwC8pJ4FWC5lxEQKQ8En0rnsYmUNAuWS6AW6ojnmMzd1ttGvfD9uZ0vddO9svgd4AaeH9RXM0VGsskuJcNp_WpECxCA06FqR_1qeO7HlG2u50yzt8ZcEU9WJCHgM5KxsmtD_y9eLgpzMNRbkA_i3qp3Gz0kMA?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none" width="495" height="660" />

<img src="https://p7xfpq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mGFl5gusjuc8dbAWxcVrip7FSTdDouSFMq_UYWwb_SJmPy_M-IrLuco5iSgJPjD-nWk4vzwImEz641AsgVM5VmDTyIn5kzrqoJei6e12NR5Qd28ItwmZBteH2AoazIo2_Lq2qgci6ULp5EfB3UR_kYaO9u2FS7XpN2jjREM4_HaeWAPCwYpn7CqnSTvVLGiFs2Ras54cj_B7JPlkvoca1rg?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none" width="495" height="660" />

Here's the gap between the front of the impeller and the water inlet.
<img src="https://p7xcpq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mUdGs-SEFRWzqz2ZPujuENuR3pY18b_rr0qcSJD7sR4s_cKRqE07MQqL1In3SwTAFVR7lcrJY4-Bo5Ui_Q7SojkrBTPlZFwW_6n0iesirt0sDegvcq4jyRUDMa0cZTGs69X0qeC-9IzhHaGJ6Nox4MIxUaUPYNCFJULEoZQYAJ8pEXHs4QAmmtBWW7XtsGr_IyPGIb2GaQL159YnK2NpDkw?width=495&height=660&cropmode=none" width="495" height="660" />

Thank you both, that is instructive. I had just assumed that the thin gaskets were mostly useless. Regardless of what we use, we will still be placing gasket sealer as an extra precaution. The hope is that once the engine is back together it will not need to be apart again for a very, very long time. And we'd all like to have no leaks if possible.

-Kevin