Re: How'd they do it?
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You are most welcome! And yes, I know all about M-B's involvement in the Buick Caballero too. What you may not know is that Creative Industries of Detroit was also involved in these cars too! AND the original and successive Corvettes (and yes, I have original photos). Likewise, I have also owned several Corvettes over the years, beginning with a 1958 and ranging up to a C6. Fan of Corvettes almost as much as I am a fan of Packards. ALMOST. On the PAC National Meet Detroit bus tour last summer, I pointed out a lot not far from the Packard Plant where an original very early 1953 Corvette sat for something like 20 years... unloved, unwanted... and I begged my dad to let me buy it. I understand it was eventually hauled away. Yes. These things once happened in Detroit. Another fact that I talk about in my Packard Concept Car presentation is that toward the end in the mid-1950s, Packard had two "skunkworks" in Detroit. One could even say four if one counted the advanced engineering facility over on East Grand Blvd. and the facility out in Warren at the proving grounds. But the first two were: 1.) On East Outer Drive at Creative Industries of Detroit and 2.) On East Forest Avenue at a nameless building that was formerly a Detroit Edison substation. Ask me how I know. FInally, Briggs really didn't start a totally new landmark with Packard as far as outsourcing bodies. Numerous companies including Henney, Dietrich, Darrin, Le Baron and so many others also supplied bodies to Packard, albeit on a lesser number. That was the way things once worked. And as a final six-degrees-of-separation thing... I wonder how many Packard fans know that Ray Dietrich designed Gibson guitars after the days of his work for PMCC?
Posted on: 2014/3/31 14:38
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Re: How'd they do it?
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Ahh... you are most welcome (BTW... that's "Leeedy" with 3 e's)! RE: your M-B reference link... Perhaps you do not know that your reference link goes to a page for which, frankly, I supplied much of the information. I have been keeping up with Mitchell-Bentley since the 1950s when I lived in Michigan. I have attached a photo of my 1950s company prospectus (the cover opens both left and right) and a special Mitchell-Bentley perpetual calendar given to top automotive customers back in the 1950s. Of course I have more of this kind of stuff. So I know about them the same way I know about Packard... and I know about Creative Industries of Detroit. RE: the M-B collection of cars... Yes, I am well aware of the M-B museum that once existed. While I know what happened to a few of the cars (like their Balboa clone and "whatzit" so-called "Mitchell Panther"-it wasn't), I have no idea what happened to the rest. And while M-B claimed to have done the Panthers in total, they actually only trimmed them out. Creative Industries of Detroit did the rest-as clearly stated in the Spring, 1984 issue of The Packard Cormorant magazine which contained the first accurate and complete history on these cars. RE: the Packard plant, tours, etc... Yes. When we were there I was frankly reluctant for anyone to get off of the busses. But it was what it was. And anyone who was listening may recall that I asked extreme caution regarding the section of the building at the corner of Concord and East Grand Blvd. I could see that the wall was already buckling near the top at that time. I took photos of the bulge and predicted it would not last to the winter. Sounds like I was right. And frankly, two friends (former employees at Creative who occasionally visit the Packard Plant) told me that scrappers had somehow performed the miracle of removing some steel reinforcements for the roof and top floor (how'd they do that?). So I am not at all surprised to hear that Concord is now barricaded. A lot of insanity and greed continues at the site... and that is very sad.
Posted on: 2014/3/31 14:04
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Re: How'd they do it?
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You need to know that these things that Packard is accused of doing that seem weird or wasteful today and to people outside of the car industry, in fact were not at all unusual. On the contrary, outsourcing bodies throughout much of Packard's history was a very normal procedure. Yes, some of today's car companies make big statements about their capabilities-especially those from overseas. Some of it is true... some is puffery. But with computers and robotic assembly, sure, a lot is possible. It ought to be! And while we're talking about what seems to be genius and waste by various car companies, there are some facts to consider. Ford outsourced bodies and cars all during the 1950s and even into recent years. What, you say, were these cars? Mustang convertibles for many years were built by outside vendors. In more recent years various Ford products were built by Mazda. Like the Probe and Capri and last Cougar. Back in the 1950s, Mercury station wagons were built by Mitchell-Bentley's Ionia Division (if you never heard of M-B, think of 1953-54 Packard Caribbeans because that's who converted them too!). GM used M-B for many Buick station wagons and later, Buick, Olds, Pontiac and others (and for anyone crying out- Oh no, you're wrong they had Fisher Body... just look on the door sill step plate and you'll likely see "Body By Ionia" rather than "Body By Fisher"). And back on the subject of Ford using outsiders... who do you think built the Continental Mark II??? Mitchell-Bentley.Yes, same folks who did the first two years of Caribbeans. And yessss, Ford lost money on every one of those too. But they are still some of the most memorable FoMoCo products ever. How about Toyota? Who do you think built the Celica convertibles? American Sunroof Company (ASC) and my friend, the late Heinz Prechter. They had plants in different locations-one of which was in SoCal where a small assembly line existed and hardtops were cut into convertibles. ASC also did Camaro and Firebird convertibles for GM. Bottom line: none of this was unusual practice in the auto industry. ASC did the retractible hard top Mitsubishi 2000GT Spyder too. And more. RE: Packard's need for a large facility on Grand Blvd... most car plants in Detroit's glory years were huge. They had to be. Ever see old Dodge Main? Or Ford Highland Park? Or Ford Rouge? Everything was pretty much done indoors-despite (or because of) the climate. And the Packard plant on Grand Blvd. produced much more than merely cars. Also remember that much of the facility was ballooned during wars-especially World War II. Once it was there... it was there. Yes, not all of it was being used, but if they needed it, they had it. AND some of that huge space made money. A good-sized area was actually leased to Briggs and others. Of course all that space is also the reason that Packard once had parts inventories going back decades earlier and could often supply their wealthy customers with replacement items that no auto parts store would stock. Sadly, these large inventories were...uh..."disposed of" in the 1950s.
Posted on: 2014/3/30 13:48
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Re: Packard Monte Carlo
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There is no "additional insight" here that was not already published in the Spring, 1984 edition of The Packard Cormorant magazine. If we're going to credit "additional insight" then let's place the credit where the credit is really due: The Packard Club and The Packard Cormorant magazine. All of the Panther information on the site linked came from me (whether it is directly acknowledged or not-and yes, got the emails). The site knows where it came from, even if it does not always say so. But this information was first published in TPC in 1984. This was the first time ever that anyone stood up and said exactly how many Panthers were built, who built them, when and where. And how they were modified and where. I would know since a friend of mine did the actual work. And the original (and really only) history of Creative Industries was also written by yours truly and that appeared in the December, 1978 issue of Car Classics magazine which was widely distributed on news stands and via subscriptions back then. So this is not new information, nor was it ever hard to get. One can go back and read the original genuine articles... or you can read 2nd, 3rd, 4th-party re-hashes of that information that was already published 30+ years ago, but don't credit the source. It is frustrating to see one's hard work simply used by another with no acknowledgement or credit and then making it seem as though it came from the 3rd, 4th, 5th guy down the line when the originator (or at least the original published pieces that revealed this history in the first place) are not even mentioned! The original published items included (among other things): ? Creative's involvement with the Panthers and the Request, ? How many Panthers were built and who built them ? How the 1955 tail lights ended up on two Panthers ? Creative's work on the Predictor And for those musing about the original name of the Predictor, it was not "Projector" (which was only considered momentarily)... it was "Javelin"... yes-Javelin. Again, this information too has already been published in The Packard Cormorant Magazine in the history of the Predictor. The site linked should place quotes and give credit for the Panther history inside story and other info listed, but it does not always do that-making it seem as if the info came from them. It didn't. This is all stuff that was published long before the internet, but yet gets repeated today on the internet as if it is a new discovery. It may seem to be new... but it just seems that way. RE: the Monte Carlos... there was more than one version of the first Monte Carlo (based on late 1940s body). And the stage II Monte Carlos of the 1950s were Q&D jobs with nowhere near the engineering one might imagine. The question is, I knew of only two stage II Monte Carlos originally. But somehow there seem to be more than two of these around today...
Posted on: 2014/3/27 18:14
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Re: How'd they do it?
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RE: the Packard Plant photo shown above in the posts... Not a good photo to go by. This is how things look now. Big difference. The important rail stuff related to this subject matter is all missing from this photo. The kind of blanked area to the right of the tracks at Grand Blvd. (upper left-hand corner 3/4ths of the way up) is where the power plant once stood. Behind it was where they piled mountains of coal. When the power plant was torn down they put an A&P supermarket there... the low-story building now all boarded up. That coal came in on the tracks you see here. So did the oil and gasoline. But... Those open areas? They once had more of the plant facility on them. This photo is just not good for determining how it once was. In fact, the entire area that used to be the petroleum storage facility and the entire new car storage, truck-away, drive-away office and train shipping area is not even shown here. See the open area that begins to the left of this photo? That is where much of it was... well off into the upper left corner that is not even shown here. And the train tracks were much different then. The spur and line in this modern photo were pretty much the same then (except surrounded by more buildings), but there was much more track and rail heads off to the northwest of the property (which would be to the extreme upper left out of the photo). The rail heads and shipping ramps, etc. were all destroyed when a supermarket was built over where they were and the storage lot was turned into a parking lot. For just a peek at the Packard new car storage/shipping facility as it was post war, take a good look at the photo on Page 9 of Winter, 2009 The Packard Cormorant magazine. In the far middle left you'll see a lot with a lot with cars parked in it. Those are new 1953 Packards awaiting shipment. And there were tracks in this area too (now long gone)... where cars were loaded onto the trains. The train loading areas were all torn out when a Food Fair supermarket was built in this location. Finally, contrary to the comment about the rail spur shown in the modern photo being useful... this spur was indeed very useful and important back in the day. It was here where they parked the coal cars and the tank cars. If you don't believe me, take another look at the same photo I recommended on Page 9, Winter 2009 of TPC magazine. You can actually see a long string of tank and coal bin cars lined up on this siding, parked. Same spur and strip of track-only being put to good use in 1953!
Posted on: 2014/3/24 20:35
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Re: How'd they do it?
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Hello... up until the end of the 1954 model year run, the bodies were trucked over to Grand Blvd. from Briggs. Loading trains for such a short distance in those days would have been over the top. A real ordeal. GM also trucked Fisher Bodies around the city too. Others did too. So this was really was not all that big of a deal in the 1950s-no matter how it may seem today. Much of East Warren Avenue (westbound beyond McClellan-the expressway in those days did not go past the plant yet) was one-way traffic. Packard bodies (and later, cars) took westbound East Warren Avenue directly to East Grand Blvd. and then directly to the plant. While it was also possible that some bodies could have been transitioned by rail, I can tell you that I used to actually SEE the truckloads of bodies heading for Packard. Regularly. After the end of the 1954 model run, obviously everything was done in-house on Conner Avenue in the new Packard Plant. This solved many problems, but then merely created new ones. HOWEVER, many new Packards were still transferred from there to the huge storage lot off of West Grand Blvd. and Mt. Elliot. From there they went to trucks or trains. RE: rail lines and the Packard Plant... There certainly were rail heads at the big storage lot off of Grand Blvd. and Mt. Elliot. Of course there were also more tracks through the entire plant (after all, this is how they brought in coal to fire the big power plant that made electricity... and petroleum and gasoline for the fuel and oil storage facility that used to be on East Grand). At one point there were huge ramps where drivers roared up with new Packards onto trains. There was also a facility at this location where trucks were loaded for shipment out to dealers. In fact the last new building related to PMCC was built on this site for just this very purpose. It was a yellow brick building that faced Mt. Elliot. In later years it became a storefront Baptist church. Then slightly modified (it now has a red brick front). This building still stands today (boarded up and missing its brushed stainless frame electric sign that once overhung the sidewalk and green marble entry) on the corner of Medbury and Mt. Elliot. If you Google Map this corner and look toward the Packard plant, the open lot that you see is where all of the new Packards were once stored-even after the new Conner Plant opened and was building cars. You can read more about all of this in the Winter, 2009 issue of The Packard Cormorant magazine. The building to the left of the lot as you look up Medbury toward the Packard Plant is apparently now some kind of food warehouse, but originally it was a Food Fair supermarket, then later a Farmer Jack supermarket... all built on top of where the trains loaded cars. Medbury dead-ended into the Packard storage lot and it was the departure point for many trucks filled with Packards. The Packard new car storage lot-originally a huge fenced acreage-then became the parking lot for the supermarkets. As you can see even after all of the buildings and all of the years, it it still a good-sized open lot today. RE: rail lines at the NEW Packard Plant on Conner... there was a rail spur aside this plant too, but it was nothing like the rail facility at Grand Blvd. Though this rail spur eventually tied in with a large cluster of tracks near the Fruehauf plant, it could not really compare to the Grand Blvd. facility. But there was rail access. Of course this rail access was on the "receiving" side of the Conner plant... away from where the product output doors were. RE: other articles in [i]The Packard Cormorant magazine...[/i] In addition to the issue I mentioned already, a very nice and thorough article on the Briggs was written by John "Mr. Pushbutton" Lauter. It contained great photos, operational info and much insight to their facilities and Packard products made there. Big hint: you can't always go by what you see today in images of the Packard Plant on East Grand to make any serious conclusions about rail lines there ... or a lot of other things in the past. So much has changed. And for Conner...there is really nothing left to give insight now.
Posted on: 2014/3/24 20:11
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Re: I'm new and have a few questions
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As I study the mounting prongs on the rear of the triangle medallion/badge, it becomes apparent that this badge was indeed once mounted on a vehicle panel.
Looking at the base of the prongs I can see where the plating has been worn off... a typical sign that the badge was once mounted. The usual way such medallions and trim were mounted on a 1950s Packard was using Tinnerman "speed nuts" that were merely pushed onto the prong and thus held it snug via tension against the sheet metal while gripping the prong. However, movement of the vehicle, friction against the drilled holes/sheet metal... and flexing for constant temperature changes would cause the plating on the mounting prong to wear off where it was gripped tightest. Take a look at the plating on these two prongs. Look at the base of the prongs closest to the medallion. What it says to me is that this medallion was once mounted and later removed. Who knows? It may be the very medallion missing from the driver's door on the Pan American in my photo!
Posted on: 2014/3/23 20:12
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Re: I'm new and have a few questions
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No problem.
Guess I should also say that a large version of the triangle logo for Pan American (in addition to the Henney vertical medallion logo I mentioned earler) was also displayed at the Pan Pacific Auditorium in Los Angeles when the Pan Am went on exhibit there in the 1950s. The triangle and huge logo hung suspended over the rear of the Pan American. And... as I mentioned earlier... here is exactly where the small glass-enameled triangle logo that the poster on this site has belongs. See those two holes in front of the second "P"??? Guess what goes there?
Posted on: 2014/3/22 18:56
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Re: I'm new and have a few questions
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Au contrare...actually there were six (6) Pan Americans built, not four. And yes, the triangular emblem indeed appears to be a Pan Am door emblem. I will go even further in noting that one Pan Am car I knew of years ago was missing ONE of these emblems and I have photos of it showing the triangle emblem missing from the door. Of course anytime emblems and logos are made up for a vehicle-even one-offs-the usual procedure is to have extras made. Since this one shows mounting prongs on the rear and a curvature, it just would not seem to be a mere souvenir. I do have a very large amount of Packard Pan American info and photos gathered over many decades. I knew these cars from when they were new. I am still trying to locate all of the cars and serial number information for a final history and large, accurate article on these cars. Finally, one of the other vertical medallions ("Body Styled and Built By Henney" -turquoise on top, black on lower half) was featured in an original magazine advertisement in the 1950s showing a Richard Arbib concept illustration of a Pan American (with the top up-and yes, there WERE Pan Ams with tops-contrary to what some want you to believe). This vertical Henney medallion was also shown in a very large size at the Pan Pacific Auditorium in Los Angeles when Pan Am #1 was exhibited there shortly after it was built. You are also welcome to PM me on Pan Americans and these medallions.
Posted on: 2014/3/22 12:00
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