Hi Tom:

Since I was thrown out of this forum, I normally wouldn't bother with you people any more. But from time to time I do peek in. In your case, you seem like a decent nice guy with a SINCERE interest in keeping a Packard on the road.

So - here goes a suggestion that you may not like because of the absurd cost ! But it the ONLY thing that will WORK!

First, BELIVE in this. A properly set up Packard, no matter WHAT the year, does not over-heat. EVER.

Not when freshly over-hauled, not when new. PERIOD.

As one of many examples of the superiority of Packard's philosophy over "over - engineering" - - by the late teens Packards were "sectioned" into busses by a predecessor of the GREYHOUND BUS CO. in California, and regularly BEAT the express train from Los Angeles to San Francisco. That means they were SCREAMING over the then tortourous "Ridge Route" and across the often extremely "desert hot" Central Valley. Over-heating was not authorized ! And be assured it can get as hot in the Calif. Central Valley, as it does out in the desert!

Here's the problem. No matter how many times you "boil out" or try and "rod out" an old radiator, you can never get it to have anywhere NEAR the "heat exchange" capability it had when in service as a new or late-model used radiator. Just cant be done. The problem is "basic laws of chemistry".

I can assure you (from my own experience with my own '34 Super Eight), that when you get your radiator "re-cored", you will find you can subject that Super Eight of yours to any kind of combined extreme temp.driving conditions you can think of, and it WILL NOT OVER-HEAT.

So here's the bad news. I wouldnt be surprised to find that present day cost of a comparable "core" for your radiator will be close to a thousand bucks (by the time the radiator shop is done getting you a core, and setting it up using your existing top and bottom "tanks"). Your motor produces a LOT of heat, so it takes a LOT of radiator to cool it right.

Dont worry about getting your oil cooler operational. It was a attempt by Packard engineers to solve the connnecting rod bearing failure issue. It failed. Cooling the motor oil did NOT solve the problem of "babbit" connecting rod bearings failing from high speed driving - it wasnt solved until 1935 production with the introduction of "insert" type rod-bearings.

With insert-type con rod bearings, Packard was able to run a 1935 Eight wide open, doing 90 mph plus, for 25,000 mi. without significant wear. A bone stock '34 or earlier 8 cyl Packard with stock 'poured babbit' WILL have rod bearing failure in less than 2,000 miles of high speed driving. If you want to see why that didnt matter much given the road conditions when your car's motor was originally designed (in the early 1920's) come out west and see what the roads were REALLY like in those years - "awful" dosnt cover it !

Hopefully, if your '34 Super Eight was PROPERLY re-built, it already either has '35/later connecting rods, (which were already set up for "insert" type con rod bearings,) or someone took those lovely "finned cap" rods of yours and machined them to take an "insert" type bearing. If your car isnt so equipped..please PLEASE dont drive it over 40 mph for any but a short burst, and the MOMENT you dont have at least 40 lbs oil pressure HOT, and/or hear any "thumping" noises, GET THAT MOTOR APART AND FIX IT RIGHT!

In any event, use a water filter on the top of your out-put hoses to protect that expensive new radiator core that is your ONLY solution to over-heating.

No matter how thoroughly you THINK you have cleaned that engine block...it will continue to "sweat" little particles that can stuff up a radiator core and leave you back where you were.

Good luck ! You should be able to find my phone number if you want to go into further detail.

"here's the scoop"...eh ? So you "read a book".

Tim - PLEASE - I am not making fun of you. I have met some of the folks who frequent this forum, and have talked to others, and know you are mostly a bunch of really nice guys who really love Packards.

My criticism is NOT of you personally, it is of a phenomena that seems to infect all aspects of our culture.

And that is - a raging desire to "spout off" just to be heard, without any serious interest in the FACTS.

Bob Turnquist was a hell of a nice guy. When Sonny and he hosted me at their lovely home, I felt I was in the presence of particularly charming, wonderul, and intelligent people who shared my love of the special company and its products that were P A C K A R D !

As sharp as Bob was, he did get himself into trouble with me from time to time making enthusiastic statements - but he was quick to be a gentleman and admit that he personally was NOT a hands-on Packard mechanic. I cannot find the section you are referring to in his book. But I dont doubt that Bob was a human guy, who, like me, would occasionaly make mistakes in his beliefs about PACKARDS.

Sure he hung around his shop and knew a great deal, but was the first to admit there was a lot more he did NOT know.

Looking at the '38 - '39 Twelve chassis layout in the REAL world, the motor most certainly DID NOT MOVE from its previous position on 1935-1937 models.

What happened was Packard engineers recognized that the further foward the "mass" of the motor was, in relation to the front wheel-center, the more stable the vehicle would be at extreme speeds. How to improve extreme speed stability "on the cheap" ? Simple - the front suspension was moved BACKWARD. Rest of the chassis on '37 - '39 Twelves is pretty much identical for any given body style.

Again, the FRONT END of the chassis and sheet metal foward of the fire-wall were shortened.

Again, this was a VERY clever way of changing the weight relationship of the front end to the wheel-centers, without spending a lot of money on major body/frame relationships on a product that was about to be discontinued! And it WORKS !

The few inch difference in where the front wheel centers are on the '38 - '39 Twelves ( compared to the '37) DOES give a bit of extreme speed straight line stability over the earlier Twelves (also makes them SLIGHTLY less "sporty" at lower speeds on curves ! ).

THAT is why the front of the oil pan casting has a notch in it to clear the tie-rod center crank position, that the '37 and earlier Twelves, (again, with their motorsmounted in the same place, but their suspensions and wheel-centers further foward of the engine) did not need.

Now - for a detailed answer to the question that started this "thread".

The water pump of '38 - '39 Twelves most certainly can be removed without taking the front clip apart, IF.

That's the problem - the big "IF".

Modern analysis shows that the pre-war aluminum used in the cyl. heads and front-timing case covers would, these days, not be fit to make lawn chairs out of. As a result, the BOLTS that fastened the pump to the front engine case would "strip out" the much softer threads in that front-cover.

It wasnt long before many '38 - '39 Twelves had their water pumps held down with STUDS permanently set up in the front cover.

With the "stud" equipped front case covers, of course you cannot move the Twelve's water pump far enough foward to get it out without removing the radiator (you can't tilt it foward like you can with earlier Packards).

So - the real problem for the fellow who asked the question, is to determine HOW the water pump was affixed to the front cover. If it is un-touched, and fastened with BOLTS, once it is un-bolted (and, of course, the fan removed) it will come right off. Trouble is, that means it has an original front case cover, which SHOULD BE REPLACED WITH A REPRO FRONT COVER MADE FROM MODERN ALUMINUM.

Yes, it is a pain to service the water pump when it is in a car that has been re-fitted with STUDS, rather than threads in the case cover. But that is the proper shop proceedure to guard against the bolts "stripping out".

I personally do not like threads in aluminum. I think it is a wise shop practice to put steel inserts in the cyl. heads for the spark plugs, even on the modern "repro" alum. cyl. heads. That is why even on the "repro" front timing case covers on the Twelves, I recommend using STUDS instead of bolts threaded into those covers.

Good luck to all of you

Bye Bye !