Packard Forum Index » ZIS, ZIL, and other Packard Cousins!

Washington Zil. Owen, Thanks For the pics of the Zil. Note the plate on it is Diplomat.

As for the Zis ambulance. It somewhat begs the question as to how the Zis commercial bodied cars compare to Packard built commercial or maybe closer yet, Packard built war effort ambulances that may have been used in the very early months of WWII both stateside and abroad.

Guscha: The statement I made that the ZIS 110 weighed 1000
more than the 180 is fact. I wasn't certainly trying to add to any kind of legend.

The 1942 Packard 180 Limo on a 148 inch wheel base weighed in at around 4600 lbs.

If you convert the figure you posted the weight of the ZIS 110 Limo is 5676 pounds.

The weight difference should be expected knowing that at that time Russian building methods weren't as refined as those in the USA.


John F. Shireman

durn..think I deleted my own post by accident...!

Anyway, a few comments about the "ZIS made from Packard dies" legend.

To understand the basis for the legend, you have to understand the political climate of that era. If you were a hater of President Roosevelt, it made a nice story that mean ole President Roosevelt ruined the Packard Company by taking away their dies, so they couldn't compete in the big car market after World War Two.

Of course it is utter nonsence - first of all, Packard didn't have any dies to give, even if it wanted to. With the destruction of the old "Senior Division" facilities, Packard became pretty much an ASSEMBLER. Frames came from AO Smith. Bodies from Briggs. Interior fittings from one of the several Detroit area suppliers of pot metal trim pieces. Wheels, from Motor Rim And Wheel. Same situation for carbs., electrical systems, etc. We know the basic engine castings of the engine line Packard had before, stayed at the Packard plant, as these were used for post-war Packard production.

I would not be surprised if the STALIN MOTOR WORKS ( that is what ZIS roughly translates into) had agents here who bought some parts from the same suppliers Packard used, and if so, would explain how SOME small parts on the ZIS actually are the same as parts Packards used.

For those of you who are intersted in the phenomena of "back engineering", there is an intersting story floating around the "net" about how the Russians "back-engineered" a seized American B-29 aircraft. My understanding is they even copied a battle-damage patch, not knowing what it was for !

Packard 12 fan has a point, Packard bodies were made by Briggs.

Besides it was high time for them to drop the senior models and move on.

Lincoln had already phased out their senior models in favor of a mass produced model based on the cheap Zephyr.Chrysler had been emphasizing the mass produced models since bringing out the Airflow as their senior model. Cadillac dropped their slow selling V16 about the same time and likewise, concentrated on their mass produced V8s with factory bodies.

Pierce Arrow, Stutz, and Marmon were long gone.

The new 1942 "Clipper" had a high style body somewhat larger than the old 110 and 120, and became the basis for a new mass produced senior straight eight.

This was in line with the overall trend of the industry.

From the article. What does CKD shipment mean????

MORE IMPORTANTLY. Read the LAST sentence of the article indicating CAST dies. Think about it. The jury is still out.

Guscha. Just out of curiosity, what is the avatar u use. Is it a trim item on a Zil or Zis??? And where is it on the car??? Somewhere on the top near the rear window???

The bit about the die cast dies is interesting. Didn't think that would have been possible. Wonder what the "smaller run quantity" would be and how large a piece--a fender with the multiple curves & draws seems a bit much for essentially pot metal--unless the aluminum really changes it.

Have heard 2 definitions for CKD. One was Crated Knock Down and the other was Complete Knock Down.

CKD stands for Completely Knocked Down. It indicates that crates of stampings were shipped, then used to manufacture complete cars at their destination. Of course engines, wheels etc would also be shipped, sufficient to make the required number of cars.

Branch plants in foreign countries received cars in CKD form. This meant the factory could be greatly simplified, yet the cars would qualify as "locally built" which meant a much lower import duty, as well as lower shipping costs.

I have heard of "Kirksite" dies being made in the 40s. They were cheaper and faster to make than steel dies, but they would do for pressing aluminum parts, or for limited runs of steel parts.

"Kirksite" was a low melting point alloy that was easy to work but not as strong as steel.

The emblem looks like a hood ornament to me???

A quick search turned up some interesting info on Kirksite dies:

Making a new 32 Ford body on Kirksite dies, with details of how such dies are used in Detroit for low production parts.

autofieldguide.com/articles/060405.html

Pressing aluminum parts for B17 bombers during WW2

popartmachine.com/item/pop_art/LOC+1276007

I really do think the story of FDR giving a 180 as a gift to Uncle Joe Stalin could possibly have a lot of truth to it.

However this is fact. In 1942 some of the last Packard's sold were two Super Eight 180's purchased by the Russian government. they were delivered to their embassy in Washington DC. Perhaps these two 180's were shipped to Russia
and one of the 180's copied.

John F. Shireman