Packard Forum Index » ZIS, ZIL, and other Packard Cousins!

I've now had a chance to examine the ZIS-110 limousine being restored by Johan Berg in Stockholm, Sweden. His estimate is that about 5070 were built from the close of World War II until the mid-50s, and perhaps 180 remain, one still in government service in North Korea, and one interestingly owned by Vladimir Putin. There were at least 4 body styles; limousine, armored limousine, 4 door open parade car, and ambulance. Some dimensions are metric, others English system. Probably the most accurate description is that the car is ?inspired? by the 42 Packard, close in some details, not in others, and exactly the same in extremely few (for example, some internal speedometer parts are identical). No parts were supplied by Packard. None of the body panels interchange, for example the rear doors are about 5 inches thick at the bottom, perhaps so the same door can be used for the armored version with almost 3 inch thick glass and weighing 5.1 tons (the standard limo weighs about 2.5 tons). The engine block is about 1 cm longer than the 356 Packard so the heads, manifolds, crankshaft, etc. will not interchange though the water and fuel pumps and carburetor interchange. The carburetor is a knock-off of the Carter 531S, though different in details and apparently one with a governor was also used on occasion. Apparently there were three different variants of the engine, perhaps a higher hp version for the armored version and supposedly an even higher performance variant as well. The transmission and driveshaft/universal joints are quite different. I was also able to confirm that the round item on the manifold side in the prior picture posted that was in proximity to the oil pump is indeed an oil filter.

The ZIS convertible parade car shown at the Packard Centennial was owned at the time by Sonny Abagnale of New Jersey, I'm not sure of it's current whereabout. Some years back a gentleman named Duggin (?) from South Jersey also had a limousine.

There is a small cadre of owners and restorers with some difficult availability of original parts, and some Packard mechanical parts can be substituted, some with modification (like transmissions) and others without.

"None of the body panels interchange, for example the rear doors are about 5 inches thick at the bottom, perhaps so the same door can be ..."

But are the outer skins the same???

"The engine block is about 1 cm longer than the 356 Packard so the heads, manifolds, crankshaft, etc. will not interchange though ..."

1 cm is about 3/8 inch. Not significant. Only a moderate feasability argument against I'change at best. The only way to know for sure is have cylinder spaceing measurements and crank comparison. Will the head I'change???

" built from the close of World War II until the mid-50s"

The cars were built from WWII effort surplus. Mounds and airplane hangers full of parts and tooling is my guess. I was buying WWII cushman and Indian among other non-Packard related surplus as late as 1990. Still packed in cosmoline and UNtouched since 1943-45 era.

As I said, none of the body panels interchange, so the door skins are not the same. The door sizes, shapes, window openings are not the same. Also the 1 cm longer is relevant because it changes the spacing of the head studs. The cars were designed from scratch and not made from surplus, do you think Joe Stalin would want a state car made from left-overs? Not likely. I forgot to mention earlier than the front and rear bumpers are Cadillac-inspired, as is the rear end body styling.

You own research and i quote: " were built from the close of World War II until the mid-50s,"

As well as: " Probably the most accurate description is that the car is ?inspired? by the 42 Packard,..."

Answers this question u asked:
"do you think Joe Stalin would want a state car made from left-overs? Not likely. "

It's not like he was trying to update to 1948. So YES, i do think he would use left overs. But for better reasons.

No, I didn't forget my camera, here's a few pix of Johan Berg's ZIS under restoration. Entirely new floorpan has been fabricated, most sheet metal work done, engine rebuilt (in Poland).

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No, as I said earlier somewhere in this thread, it's a limousine, not armor-protected.

When looking at side pictures of the ZIS 110 and the Packard 180 you will find some other differences between the two.

The first thing that you notice is the windshieled on the ZIS 110 has more of a backward slant than the Packard 180.

The entire side rood section of the ZIS 110 is much thinner than that of the Packard 180.

Also the trunk profile on the Packard 180 is flatter than that of the ZIS 110.

This alone should be proof enough to any person that the Packard 180 dies were never used to make the ZIS 180.


It has been noted from one source that I have that ZIS 110 weighed about 1000 pounds more than the Packard 180.

John F. Shireman

I don't see much point in trying to compare FOREIGN Commercial MAIN BODY SECTIONS to domestic passenger car body sections. It's even more obscure than comparing domestic commercial to domestic passenger bodies. No conclusion can be drawn.

The "ambulance" strikes me more as a hearse. And with white wall tyres to-boot. Note the lack of any emergency appendages to the car like siren, lites or markings. Then there is is the odd bussel backed rear door. What? the patients feet are stuck under the lid??? If they were building special ambulance bodies a reasonable person mite think that they would have made it more square in the back instead of bussel backed. I doubt that it is an ambulance. Maybe doubled as an ambulance but proabbly primarily as a hearse or other type of carrrier. Also note what appears to be curtains in the sidewindows.

Good points all, PackardV8. I'm beginning to get a bit Zissed out, but let me include 3 photographs from the earlier years of PAC's Cormorant publication. The ZIS ambulance photo was taken on the streets of Moscow in 1960, and the ZIL limousine on the streets of Washington, D.C. in 1969 (hark! a Lark across the street). The ZIL was reputedly produced from 1957 to 1967 and only in two body styles, the limousine and a 4-door convertible.

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This is an interesting thread, I have been intrigued by the Packard - Zis connection for years.

According to the information I have, the straight eight Packard - like Zis was produced until 1959. If it had a projected service life of 20 years, official stocks of repair parts would have been maintained until 1979.

Thus it would not be surprising if such stocks survive to the present day.

In the US there are stores of NOS parts for Studebaker, Hudson, and other cars that went out of production decades ago.

There is even a warehouse full of NOS Hupmobile parts, for a low production car that expired in 1941.

I thought there were at least 2 Zis sedans in the US. One captured during the Korean War in the early 50s. The other, privately imported from Europe in the 50s or 60s. Now I hear there is a convertible as well.

Russia has used the metric system for many years, since the 1917 revolution if not earlier. So it is possible that dimensional differences result from rounding off, when translating American measurements into metric terms.

Incidentally, copying an existing design is a common shortcut. Ford copied Studebaker's flathead six when they wanted a new six cylinder for 1941. Studebaker took a pretty close look at the new Cadillac V8 before they designed their own V8 and even consulted with Cadillac engineers. The resulting engine had a marked resemblance to the Caddy but differed in several important details.

The Russians seem to have done the same thing, copying an existing design but altering it where necessary, or where they felt they could improve the original.