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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#11
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HH56
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Wonder what the stroke of a hydraulic clutch setup is. Those are small diameter but probably also short stroke. Still the same problem -- pushing fluid instead of displacing it. Can't quite picture a 5/8 diameter cylinder calculation is the same as pushing say a 3/4 rod into a say 1" diameter area. Wouldn't you need to figure out the total area of the spaces involved vs what is left over.

Posted on: 2012/11/16 12:06
Howard
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#12
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PackardV8
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bhappy.
HH56 answers your question well in his above post.

Posted on: 2012/11/16 12:08
VAPOR LOCK demystified: See paragraph SEVEN of PMCC documentaion as listed in post #11 of the following thread:f
https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7245
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#13
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Robert Freeman
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Quote:

HH56 wrote:
...EDIT to bhappy's question: I don't think any mfgs are looking into it because I don't think anyone else used the BTV like we did so really not much demand. The other cars using BTV's mounted them high or on the firewall and had pedal ratio advantage from the start. There are direct bolt in replacement kits available for those applications. As to the complete rebuild kit, that is a sore point. It was brought up several times in past discussions as to why a complete and deluxe kit containing every possible replacement part couldn't be put together. A major vender said there was no need.


Howard, do the other cars, that have their BTVs mounted high on the firewall, BTVs require a higher pedal ratio? IOW don't all BTVs only require a 1:1 pedal ratio?

Posted on: 2012/11/16 12:15
Bob

IF EVERYTHING IS COMING YOUR WAY ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE!

'56 Executive Touring Sedan
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#14
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Robert Freeman
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Sorry, I'm a little out-of-step in the thread.

I would hope that some mfgs might reconsider a complete BTV rebuild kit.

Posted on: 2012/11/16 12:41
Bob

IF EVERYTHING IS COMING YOUR WAY ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE!

'56 Executive Touring Sedan
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#15
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Mr.Pushbutton
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They are already out there. Ed Strain in Pinellas park FL will do a 3 day turn-around rebuild on one. I have sent several to him with complete satisfaction.

Posted on: 2012/11/16 12:49
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#16
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HH56
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From limited research on other cars, I think BTV's all used around the same long stroke, low ratio. The major difference seems to be how and where the pedal was suspended and motion transmitted.

There is a photo somewhere in one of the old BTV threads here of a Chevy mounted high and a Cadillac with BTV mounted by the radiator with a long rod connecting to the pedal. Here is another photo showing a Lincon up at the top of firewall. There is a you tube video on the Lincoln and interestingly, the commentator makes the same reference to sudden failures in the compensator valve and how he advises people to change them out. Threw in a photo of the modern BTV replacement that bolts in for the high mounts.

A Chevy forum says their ratio was around a reverse 1:3. Here is an illustration showing how they did it. Although I can't quite picture what they do to fit a modern unit, because the Chevy is mounted high, is must be a simple matter to get rid of or modify the old BTV linkage to increase the ratio and lower the stroke distance for a modern booster. I think there is a new plate involved so maybe the booster lowers a bit to change the ratio on the long or BTV operating part of the bellcrank.

All the modern units need a higher ratio and the companies say we can't mount the BTV replacements where we do because of that. Since we are mounted as far down as it can go and have the steering column preventing us from going up, we do the pedal change.

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Posted on: 2012/11/16 12:49
Howard
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#17
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Robert Freeman
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Quote:

MrPushbutton wrote:
They are already out there. Ed Strain in Pinellas park FL will do a 3 day turn-around rebuild on one. I have sent several to him with complete satisfaction.


Thx MrPB, I'll look into it. I'm not quite ready to abandon my BTV replacement as I still have the fear of sudden brake failure. Mostly because of Craigs statement about going through 4 different rebuilt BTV failures. One question I have is did these BTVs originally fail with the same frequency as they seemingly do now?

If I have mine rebuilt and revert back to it, will I have another brake failure in a short amount of time? If not, how much time should I expect the new BTV to last?

Posted on: 2012/11/16 13:21
Bob

IF EVERYTHING IS COMING YOUR WAY ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE!

'56 Executive Touring Sedan
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#18
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Robert Freeman
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Quote:

HH56 wrote:
From limited research on other cars, I think BTV's all used around the same long stroke, low ratio. The major difference seems to be how and where the pedal was suspended and motion transmitted.

There is a photo somewhere in one of the old BTV threads here of a Chevy mounted high and a Cadillac with BTV mounted by the radiator with a long rod connecting to the pedal. Here is another photo showing a Lincon up at the top of firewall. There is a you tube video on the Lincoln and interestingly, the commentator makes the same reference to sudden failures in the compensator valve and how he advises people to change them out. Threw in a photo of the modern BTV replacement that bolts in for the high mounts.

A Chevy forum says their ratio was around a reverse 1:3. Here is an illustration showing how they did it. Although I can't quite picture what they do to fit a modern unit, because the Chevy is mounted high, is must be a simple matter to get rid of or modify the old BTV linkage to increase the ratio and lower the stroke distance for a modern booster. I think there is a new plate involved so maybe the booster lowers a bit to change the ratio on the long or BTV operating part of the bellcrank.

All the modern units need a higher ratio and the companies say we can't mount the BTV replacements where we do because of that. Since we are mounted as far down as it can go and have the steering column preventing us from going up, we do the pedal change.


Thx Howard, you and the others here are tops with me. Your info, pics and research is much appreciated. My expertise is with space, not cars, although it's always good to learn about my Packards

Posted on: 2012/11/16 13:33
Bob

IF EVERYTHING IS COMING YOUR WAY ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE!

'56 Executive Touring Sedan
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#19
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HH56
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One question I have is did these BTVs originally fail with the same frequency as they seemingly do now?

A good question. I don't think they did fail back in the day or so many mfgs would not have used them as long as they did. But----there seems to have been several mfgs that used them, changed to something else, went back and then changed again. Question is why the continual changing. Was it problems or supply.

If you peruse several of the other forums for cars that used them, there is almost the same disdain and reports of failures today that we have. Again, the question is why -- faulty rebuild parts, incomplete or improper rebuilds with the rebuilder not understanding what needs to be changed out or something like a non available pitted casting suddenly dying because of old age ?????

It is too bad not many took advantage of Fred's offer so he could get a picture of failures. The one thing that struck me was the report of silicone used on one -- supposedly by a proper rebuilder. To me that is strictly not kosher. If one in an extremely limited sampling was found, how many are there like that in reality?

Posted on: 2012/11/16 13:34
Howard
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Re: New Twist on Brakes-Check it out
#20
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Robert Freeman
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I don't know if my BTV was ever rebuilt or replaced in my car's history. I do still have it, as it was, when I removed it. Is Fred(?) still interested in photos of failed BTVs?

Posted on: 2012/11/16 13:48
Bob

IF EVERYTHING IS COMING YOUR WAY ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
YOU'RE IN THE WRONG LANE!

'56 Executive Touring Sedan
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